How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#61

Post by softwaredoug » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

I’m highly skeptical. There’s only one piece of data cited in the article. In that data, the only mention of a possible trend is this

> shows that loneliness is worse in each successive generation.

Basically if you read the linked to report, the data show older people are less lonely than younger people right now. That’s not the same as showing loneliness increasing over time. There are many plausible reasons for younger people to be lonelier... it’s just as likely younger groups are always lonely and lose loneliness as they age.

The rest of the article talks about partisanship, which is a different issue entirely. Indeed as we sort ourselves into ideologically similar communities I might expect loneliness to decrease.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#62

Post by randomdata » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:57 PM UTC

bragh wrote: post #9

There is a good reason why people are escaping small towns. If you are even a little bit outside of the mold, such as being into reading instead of cars as a guy, you will be ostracized by a huge part of the community. And may God have mercy on you if you are into the really weird stuff, such as liking programming, tinkering with electronics or anime.

Escaping? There is a small town resurgence going on around here. I imagine it is being mostly driven by the excessive cost of housing in larger centres, but with that comes people with wider interests.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#63

Post by coldtea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

Beefin wrote: post #38

The thesis from Sebastian Junger’s book Tribes esplains it best: when a community has a common stressor, that strengthens the social cohesion. An incredible point made was that Israel has the lowest sucide rate of all the third world countries, and guess what he attributes it to? Mandatory draft. The common stressor that every single countryman can empathasize with each other about is war. While it sounds depressing…

>An incredible point made was that Israel has the lowest suicide rate of all the third world countries, and guess what he attributes it to? Mandatory draft. The common stressor that every single countryman can empathasize with each other about is war.

The second part would explain bigger empathy/cohesion (the have a common stressor), not less suicide.

I'd say it's rather that the draft can make you see often BS personal problems people tend blow out of all proportion for what they are (in other words, it "hardens" you). If you have to be accountable to a sergeant, wake up every morning at 6', do drills, have to learn to work and live with others whether they fit your echo bubble or not, etc, for a year or two, you get a taste of more stuff that awaits in the real/working word than you'd get starting from being overprotected and spoiled by your parents all your life.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#64

Post by davidlee1435 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

Beefin wrote: post #38

The thesis from Sebastian Junger’s book Tribes esplains it best: when a community has a common stressor, that strengthens the social cohesion. An incredible point made was that Israel has the lowest sucide rate of all the third world countries, and guess what he attributes it to? Mandatory draft. The common stressor that every single countryman can empathasize with each other about is war. While it sounds depressing…

It's interesting that Junger points to a mandatory draft as an example. Two counterpoints to that would be South Korea and Lithuania, which also have mandatory drafts and high rates of suicide per capita.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#65

Post by coldtea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

RoutinePlayer wrote: post #49

Beefin wrote: post #38

The thesis from Sebastian Junger’s book Tribes esplains it best: when a community has a common stressor, that strengthens the social cohesion. An incredible point made was that Israel has the lowest sucide rate of all the third world countries, and guess what he attributes it to? Mandatory draft. The common stressor that every single countryman can empathasize with each other about is war. While it sounds depressing…

I'd like to read that book someday, but doesn't "stressor" seems too negative. Why not the more neutral "cause"?

Because "cause" means common goal. While stressor means "something everybody has to worry about / pass through".

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#66

Post by war1025 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

RoutinePlayer wrote: post #49

Beefin wrote: post #38

The thesis from Sebastian Junger’s book Tribes esplains it best: when a community has a common stressor, that strengthens the social cohesion. An incredible point made was that Israel has the lowest sucide rate of all the third world countries, and guess what he attributes it to? Mandatory draft. The common stressor that every single countryman can empathasize with each other about is war. While it sounds depressing…

I'd like to read that book someday, but doesn't "stressor" seems too negative. Why not the more neutral "cause"?

Hardship brings people together.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#67

Post by igravious » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #22

igravious wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's bull, political anger is being caused by ever growing income and wealth disparity – only an oblivious moron or someone who is happy with the status quo would be blind to that. edit: to all those flagging and downvoting: my comment wasn't at @nabla9 it was directed at the assumptions in the NY Times article. It's very convenient for writers at the so-called newspaper of record to ignore the huge transfer in wea…

Not a great formula for discussion.

Which extremely ambitious assertion? You mean the one in the article that states: “Mr. Sasse argues that “loneliness is killing us,” citing, among other things, the skyrocketing rates of suicide and overdose deaths in America. This year, 45,000 Americans will take their lives[1], and more than 70,000 will die from drug overdoses.”

[1] when in fact it has been verified that in Europe suicide rates have increased since the onset of austerity – there have been many studies and reports, here is one such finding: https://www.globalresearch.ca/eu-austerity-killing-greece-re...

[2] and show that poverty and drug abuse (and hence deaths therefrom) are correlated: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20180326/...

I stand by my claim. It doesn't take a social scientist to recognise that poverty leads to increased ill-health, stress, suicide, drug abuse. Wealth does not protect you from these things but it certainly can cushion them. So do excuse me if I find the "it's loneliness" line-of-thinking a little hard to swallow. I think in the light of all that suffering `oblivious moron' is charitable.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#68

Post by jonahrd » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:00 PM UTC

I do actually feel pretty well settled with some sense of community where I live (Montreal), but one thing I've noticed while applying to jobs is how many jobs are super aggressive about relocating me to NYC or the bay area. They almost don't listen to me when I say I'm not leaving Montreal, like I need some sort of excuse to want to actually stay where I currently am.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#69

Post by coldtea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #61

I’m highly skeptical. There’s only one piece of data cited in the article. In that data, the only mention of a possible trend is this > shows that loneliness is worse in each successive generation. Basically if you read the linked to report, the data show older people are less lonely than younger people right now. That’s not the same as showing loneliness increasing over time. There are many plausible reasons for you…

>Couldn’t it be that younger people are always lonelier than older generations?

The article doesn't merely say that "younger people are lonelier than older generations", but that successive generations are lonelier than those previously...

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#70

Post by jgh » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #50

The non-PC argument here is that diversity directly opposed to community, and I think there's some truth to it. If everyone in an area has lived there for their entire lives, it doesn't really matter if it's apartment buildings, a small high-density European-style town, or suburbs. If the rate of migration in/out is low enough, newcomers assimilate, assuming the society is welcoming and they interact. There are lots…

> The non-PC argument

If you want to have a reasonable discussion about these things, don't front-load your argument with labeling people who disagree with you in such broad, and frankly wrong, strokes.