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Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

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Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#51

Post by orionsbelt »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #24
grzm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I included the part on free-riding/non-immunized populations because as the number of free-riders increases the effectiveness of herd immunity decreases, which I believe directly addresses your point of why people do care how many people are not immunized. You may not agree, but that's the reason people care.

Logically speaking someone with AIDS is a "free-rider" from this logical perspective. How is this person different from a healthy person that chooses not to vaccinate? The logical argument seems to be that "intent" determines if you are a threat or someone to be protected? Again, by the same logical arguments people with AIDS can't go to a foreign country that doesn't vaccinate?

Let's say a particular disease requires 80% of the population to be vaccinated to provide herd immunity (this percentage varies by disease). You are extremely unlikely to have 20% of the population have AIDS or otherwise be so immuno-compromised so that they cannot get a vaccine, so everyone is safe.

The anti-vaxxers come along and free-ride, and for 10+ years, they think the are brilliant -- their kids do not get these mythologized diseases! But one day, enough morons start thinking that, that you reach a tipping point, and only 75% are vaccinated. All of a sudden, an outbreak occurs, putting all the immuno-compromised at risk, as well as the other 20%+ children of anti-vaxxers. Many kids die or become very sick. Suddenly, the anti-vaxxers realize they were playing with fire, putting children at risk.

What don't you get about this?

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#52

Post by will4274 »

cmurf wrote: post #18

This was chickenpox. Imagine if it were rubella. Or polio. They can't be physically or economically coerced by a government because of the religious exemption, so far that's the law of the land as the Supreme Court conservative shift gave us the Hobby Lobby case. So there's nothing to do about it legally in the near term, short of something so horrific that even the conservative court reverses itself somehow. But I w…

> But I wonder to what degree insurers and businesses could affect the decision making: if you're not immunized, we won't cover your hospitalization; and refuse to hire people who's immunizations aren't up to date.

You can't do this in the United States ... because of Obamacare. Obamacare's prohibition on discriminating on pre-existing conditions allows health insurance companies to consider exactly five factors: tier (level of coverage), age, location, single or family, and whether you smoke cigarettes. All other factors are illegal. Prior to Obamacare, it was legal for companies to charge unvaccinated individuals more and inidivudals who exercised less.

Source: https://www.healthcare.gov/how-plans-set-your-premiums/

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#53

Post by [deleted] »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #33
shepardrtc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand. Shingles are a resurgence of chickenpox when you're old and your immune system is too weak to fight it off. Chickenpox is herpes. It hides in your body, but as long as you're healthy, your immune system doesn't have much issue fighting it off. When you get old, then it can come back and be potentially deadly.

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#54

Post by RobertRoberts »

shepardrtc wrote: post #20
RobertRoberts wrote: post #5

[flagged]

> one unvaccinated child is a risk to a school full of vaccinated children? No. That child is at risk from the vaccinated children. The vaccinated children can still carry the virus but it may not have much of an effect on them. It will, however, have full effect on the unvaccinated child, which can then infect those who are too weak to get vaccines, such as elderly and the very young.

But doesn't that mean that kids who are too weak to get vaccines are going to carry diseases too?

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#56

Post by clort »

cmurf wrote: post #18

This was chickenpox. Imagine if it were rubella. Or polio. They can't be physically or economically coerced by a government because of the religious exemption, so far that's the law of the land as the Supreme Court conservative shift gave us the Hobby Lobby case. So there's nothing to do about it legally in the near term, short of something so horrific that even the conservative court reverses itself somehow. But I w…

You might be able to discriminate against potential employees based on their obvious stupidity, but you might be on less certain ground when they claim it is a religious viewpoint?

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#57

Post by bane »

shepardrtc wrote: post #13
RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are getting voted down, but I _wanted_ all my kids to get chicken pox. We tried to get them together with other kids that have it so they could get it. Everyone got chicken pox decades ago, it was expected. No one cared. Why does anyone care now?

Chickenpox can be deadly: https://www.cdc.gov/features/preventchickenpox/index.html Please read up on diseases before you try to infect your children with them.

When I was a child, and for generations preceding me, it was very common (almost universal) to seek out children with Chickenpox and to get your children infected with it (something like 95% of all adults alive today went through this ritual). The reasoning being that the childhood version of it is relatively mild while getting it fresh as an adult was potentially deadly. I think when I was growing up the guidance was to get your kids the Chickenpox between the ages of 5-9. You'll notice the CDC guidelines points out certain age ranges as being dangerous, but curiously for the rest it's not much of a big deal.

Since childhood infection was near universal, adults could easily take care of the children since none of them would likely get a new and potentially dangerous infection and for the children they got a week out of school and an itchy rash about as bad as a run-in with poison ivy -- another very common childhood right-of-passage in my part of the world.

The vaccine simply didn't exist and wasn't in common use until I was well into CDC "dangerous" territory, but I had already had the pox by then anyways.

Another anecdote, I have an adult uncle who didn't get Chickenpox as a child and ended up with it in his 30s, spent a spell in the hospital and had a very very rough time. I remember the discussions about it with my Grandmother where she was chastised for not having had him infected as a child properly.

The connection between Chickenpox and the Shingles wasn't even really understood until the late 50s or 60s and I don't believe it really started entering popular consciousness as a related disease until at least the late 80s though it was widely known as being a disease of the elderly. My guess is that most people still don't know that there even is a vaccine for it.

Point is, there are literally billions of people who've been through the childhood Chickenpox event, and it was the social norm until very recently to purposely infect your kids with the pox because there wasn't really much alternative and it was considered to be the safer practice.

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#58

Post by rayiner »

So my dad worked in international development his whole life. A big part of it was helping deploy vaccinations to countries around the world. When he was a child in Bangladesh, 1 out of 3 kids died before age 5. Today it’s down to 1 in 25, thanks in large part of vaccination.

People in the third world, with vastly inferior education systems, understand the importance of vaccinations and are lining up to get them. So the idea that people in the first world are deliberately turning them down just blows my dad’s mind. In my view a sign of some serious cultural decay that this is happening. Some combination of declining trust in core institutions and a rise in pernicious individualism.

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#59

Post by cmurf »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #26
shepardrtc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chickenpox can be deadly: https://www.cdc.gov/features/preventchickenpox/index.html Please read up on diseases before you try to infect your children with them.

Again, _everyone_ got it when we were kids. You can die of a cold if your body is weak enough.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it sound any less ignorant. You are not a good parent in 2018 if you're intentionally getting your kid sick with chickenpox instead of getting them vaccinated instead.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/index.html

It is an ACIP recommended vaccine for at least a decade, which means all state Mediciad recipients can get it for free or for a low cost co-pay. There is no good reason why any child is getting chickenpox today.

Re: Anti-vaccination stronghold in NC hit with worst chickenpox outbreak in 20 years

#60

Post by mcculley »

chris_wot wrote: post #48
RobertRoberts wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your questions are easily answered via Google. You clearly have an agenda here.

Maybe I am interpreting him too charitably, but I don't assume he has an agenda. I am wondering if the Wikipedia article needs to point out how the game theory works for those who are unfamiliar with such things.
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