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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#181

Post by will_brown »

Just_Smith wrote: post #177
will_brown wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it? You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to…

I'm a bit surprised that people in this thread don't seem to understand the parallels between social and economic status. It's not some grand revelation either - it's pretty much common knowledge. There's obviously a distinct difference between these two systems, but to say "China's social credit system has nothing in common with America's financial credit system" is pretty ignorant to how important having good credi…

And I tried to acknowledge the difference in my original post, by saying it’s “just a different way to skin the cat.”

But that’s why I added the edit, because I had to acknowledge people in the US love the credit system like people in China will love the social credit system. That’s unfortunately probably the most important parallel the people welcome the systems.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#182

Post by AnaniasAnanas »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #67
ultim8k wrote: post #6

Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

You've gotta look at things in perspective. When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime, a very rapidly developing economy with huge potential for all sorts of entrepreneurship, extremely cheap cost of living with heavy subsidies for costs like utilities, and a generally pretty peaceful and pleasant place. Biggest practical problem is fake or knockoff everything from condoms to eggs. Yip fake eggs are re…

> When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime

This is far, far from the truth.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#183

Post by WillPostForFood »

dnomad wrote: post #165
Juliate wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Praise for a totalitarian system is not acceptable, neither debatable. That's all. End of story. We kind of learned about that in Europe, the hard way, several times in XXth century (Italy, Germany, Russia, Soviet era invaded countries, Spain); some of us still having forgotten sadly. A social credit system that is used to expedite what is normally the responsibility of law, debate, judgement - and can then be used t…

This rhetorical maneuver, where you simply declare a system you don't understand to be totalitarian is no different from shouting Nazi at anything you don't agree with. Even a cursory analysis would show that the defining characteristic of totalitarianism, "absolute control over public and private life," doesn't apply to a system where people are completely free to travel anywhere whenever they want and the governmen…

Free travel? By your own definition China has the defining characteristic of a totalitarian state:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/07/13/one-passport-two-syste...

https://eurasianet.org/xinjiang-uighurs-grapple-travel-restr...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#184

Post by stefan_ »

miohtama wrote: post #32

While China has a bad record in human rights, I suggest to apply a lot of source criticism what comes to "social credit system." Especially here in Hacker News comments where discussion is generally more intelligent. Here is more in-depth and fact based article about the topic: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social...

Chinese cities literally use face recognition to publicly shame jaywalkers with their name on big screens:

https://www.scmp.com/tech/innovation/article/2174564/facial-...

Bad record on human rights doesn't exactly cover it when the full stupidity of that fathoms on you. Jaywalking in itself is a manufactured crime.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#185

Post by AnaniasAnanas »

richardknop wrote: post #40
ultim8k wrote: post #6

Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

Lots of western expats live in China because they have economic opportunities they don’t have access to in their home countries. Says something about the state of western world when so many young people go to China to climb the career ladder. Social mobility in western countries is almost non existent.

And over here in my university in the UK half of the students are Chinese and most of the ones that I talked with plan to continue their studies and careers here and in the US. What you claim goes both ways.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#186

Post by Juliate »

dnomad wrote: post #165
Juliate wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Praise for a totalitarian system is not acceptable, neither debatable. That's all. End of story. We kind of learned about that in Europe, the hard way, several times in XXth century (Italy, Germany, Russia, Soviet era invaded countries, Spain); some of us still having forgotten sadly. A social credit system that is used to expedite what is normally the responsibility of law, debate, judgement - and can then be used t…

This rhetorical maneuver, where you simply declare a system you don't understand to be totalitarian is no different from shouting Nazi at anything you don't agree with. Even a cursory analysis would show that the defining characteristic of totalitarianism, "absolute control over public and private life," doesn't apply to a system where people are completely free to travel anywhere whenever they want and the governmen…

It's not rhetorics. It's perspective.

* Power structures never favour the weak - it takes a democracy (distribution and separation of powers, education, free speech) to handle that, however imperfect it can be, it's the least imperfect we know as of today. And, there's no prospective new system at play anywhere today.

* Automation favours who controls the machine.

* The state controls the machine.

* No democracy, no control. Failing democracy, no control either.

* That's dangerous.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#187

Post by notyourwork »

dnomad wrote: post #161
notyourwork wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I down voted not because I disagree but because your comment is a rant and doesn't offer any justification to your perspective. Hand waving and saying go talk to people doesn't prove your point, it makes you sound silly.

Sure. In a thread absolutely full of baseless rants my comment, which does provide an explanation and a link, was the one that jumped out you. Though it is aways interesting to see people like you can rationalize your censorious actions. It's too bad HN doesn't require a text explanation for downvoting. It wouldn't decrease the hypocrisy but it would provide some further insight into the hypocrisy.

I also took the time to read the linked article and it isn't substantiating your claim. A few thousand people from an oppressive nation were surveyed about their support (or lack thereof) for a nation sponsored system. Why would anyone be surprised by the outcome of that study.

Furthermore, polls suggested Hillary Clinton was going to win the last election for US and who is the 45th president?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#188

Post by oarsinsync »

Ragnarork wrote: post #139
PavlovsCat wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so just downvoting, just censoring, just like killing people, is the "argument". Every click without a word proves my point without diminishing a word I said. Giving totalitarianism an inch, rationalizing obedience to it for just one minute, has these results. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Apparently HN worships technology more so than it values the human condition. A 1.3 billion people totalitarian """experiment""" (which already negatively impacts millions) is not a problem because "inevitable" or "interesting to observe". Authoritarianism still has many bright days ahead with such people.

That is largely the perspective I have witnessed on here over 2 years. I might need to start logging all the instances that occur for a year so that it can be published in an obvious manner, as at this point it's just [citation needed].

EDIT: That said, maybe it's just a vocal minority, or maybe it's just a lack of thinking through more than one layer of consequences to actually see where any particular path leads.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#189

Post by wozmirek »

rqs wrote: post #168
wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

> There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. Why wouldn't she? If you've installed a nuclear bomb inside a person's home and tell that person the bomb will keep him safe, he will probably feel safer either. That is as long as you don't tell him about the fact that the detonator is controlled by a nasty monkey. In China, you can only see the positive news about the system. Even when a journalist are trying…

Well, of course. It's the same as with reading any official communication from the Russian government ;)

I'm talking about the premise that may appeal to 50% of the citizens. We (as in being able-bodied men, we should take into considerations people with disabilities, weaker, older, frailer) might get outvoted.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#190

Post by liftbigweights »

lifeformed wrote: post #137
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion.…

> While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating.

They are one and the same. The "financial" rating affects where you can live ( try getting an apartment or a mortgage ) and where you work.

Sure it isn't as draconian as the chinese version but it's pervades much of your life.

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