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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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451–460 of 495 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine how awkward it would be to discover it a week into their new job?

On the job you'd have a computer and just google 'list max min median '

If they are looking for 'get list 4th largest', they will need more than Google search...

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#452
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finance?? Those companies have little to do with finance--they're tech companies.

I think they are saying it is the term they use within the finance industry for those five companies

Thanks, that's exactly what I was saying.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#453

I've built a team from trained-up junior devs, and it was great, I would recommend this route for anyone building a team. BUT... you have to have people who can train and teach as well as code. There are personality traits that don't align with this. The typical "aspy Dave" stereotype of a rockstar programmer is not good at this. So you have to align the entire team from day 1 as being a training environment as well…

I had to more or less fight them off over every position we hired for, because they didn't understand anything about coding, IT or creativity, and would just look for relevant experience in a similar field. I’m a dev coach, which means I can run circles around my client’s developers (except usually one or two). However if I ever wanted to get hired as an actual employee at any of my clients I couldn’t. I’m a high sch…

Having experienced my fair share of HR-induced job search frustration in the past, this is incredibly inspirational and validating.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#454
post #9

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I would expect that each newly hired developer (be it junior, mid-level, senior) can and will take time to do train and improve him/herself. I don't mind this being on job time, as long it is not all day. Most times this is even required when doing a task, because no one knows everything, even with X+ years of experience. If this mindset is not there and a newly hired developer…

To me this seems more like "common sense" than an unpopular opinion. As such I hope this isnt an unpopular opinion!

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#455
post #81

One of the reasons that I saw, is that training is very expensive for the company (both in terms of money, opportunity cost, time of other people, etc) which combined with people changing jobs often produces low, or negative ROI. By the time person is trained, they leave, before they start to meaningfully contribute. More experienced folks also change jobs often, but you have higher chance of getting some productive…

In my opinion everyone company likes to only benefit from experiences earned elsewhere but never like to provide folks a place to earn the same in their company. This is very unfortunate, I also see the same issue when someone is trying to even make lateral movement from one expertise to another. (Like backend to front end.) This whole process is a very lazy and unproductive way to hire. I have been thinking about an…

http://wiki.c2.com/?DryWaterhole

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#456
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hospital bills a million dollars, the health insurance says, no we'll pay you $125,000. That's it. I don't know enough to understand how this situation came about, but the bill the hospital provides is often 2x to 10x the reasonable cost and the insurance company only pays the reasonable cost. And has sort of negotiated this beforehand with the hospital. This is the situation that truly ends up screwing people wi…

This is really screwed up. "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it" is deeply immoral when applied to life and limb. I can hardly understand how a democratic society can accept a system like this. I mean, can you even imagine other areas of life where every person you purchase from attempts to screw you over by demanding 2x-10x of the reasonable fee unless you had the information to be aware of it? It…

It's even worse because neither you nor the people treating you actually know how much cost you are incurring. You find out a few weeks later when you get the bill. Imagine if anything else worked like that?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which begs the question: what happens if the premature baby is born to a US family that can't afford a decent insurance plan? Does the hospital repo the baby? Is the family bankrupt and the baby's life ruined from the get go just for being born premature? I can't wrap my head around it, and it seems to suck either way.

The parents are on the hook to the hospital, to the myriad physicians involved in the in-hospital care, and for non-covered post-discharge costs. Their financial lives may be crushed absent bankruptcy, which carries its own problems regarding loss of assets and mortgage availability for ex. The infant is also financially liable but likely uncollectable. The baby's life may or may not be ruined depending on where the…

How is the infant financially liable?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is common in India too. In fact, companies like TCS, etc are called 'mass recruiters' who recruit in bulk. There are satirical YouTube videos about them hiring by the kilogram. They hire indiscriminately, pay crap, in the the next 6 months people undergo on-the-job training. Some are kicked out, some are moved to better positions and offerings and the rest are contracted out to run-of-the-mill projects. Bac…

From my experience of outsourcing to India, they give those juniors a real, paid projects to learn on and do very little babysitting and quality control on the code produced, reducing their costs, so they're still making them money while learning - but that results in poorly written code and creates all sorts of problems for clients.

>but that results in poorly written code and creates all sorts of problems for clients.

which is where the service contract comes in

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#459
I'm a fairly senior mobile/web dev (12 years full time, part time and hobbyist before) and the best part of my job is mentoring the juniors! I push hard for hiring people who are hungry and fun to work with, and it's paid my company dividends. You can spend a few months training a junior or a twice the time hiring a senior, and the juniors always bring good energy and open minds. It's not for every company but I have enjoyed it immensely.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#460
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oftentimes if the company is a USA startup, none of the experienced engineers have time to train or even mentor junior devs. A lot of startups want people who are "10x programmers" (however ridiculous that notion might be) or maybe it's less sarcastic to describe them as new hires that don't need any guidance or input, and will achieve maximum productivity after a short time adjusting to the new environment/toolset/w…

"Not having the time" to introduce new engineers to the problem at hand, task, system or what ever is a recipe for wasting even more time in the future. It's very short sighted. Neither "10x programmers" or mere mortals can grasp a code base by reading it alone as by a thorough introduction. I mean, a mediocre engineer that knows the system well is way more useful than an excellent engineers that just got his hands o…

I agree wholeheartedly that it's shortsighted. Junior devs need training and guidance from experienced engineers. I view the problem as a failure to take the long view of progress.
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