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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#301
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very frequently consider getting any job that involves being outside and doing physical work over sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day. I like programming, but I hate not being outside for vast majority of the day and what this lifestyle is doing to my body.

Ride a bike to work. If you live too close then take a more interesting path to work that gives you some proper fitness every day.

I already do. It's not about the fitness.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that? Being outside and getting exercise is really nice, but using your brain is so much nicer. Would you really give up a job that is intellectually stimulating for one that uses you mostly for your mechanical abilities?

Yes. I have worked manual jobs in the past(repairing bicycles, working at a warehouse and as a driver and for a while at a semi-construction job that involved being outside a lot) and I feel like overall I was more consistently happy. I would come home and do coding in my own time to satisfy the intellectual needs.

The handful of manual labor jobs I've had (delivering water, installing business projects), left me bored and tired at the end of the day. Any health benefits of the exercise I got was taken away from the boredom of waiting around for person/thing to get from point A to B. There's a reason why many construction workers are overweight.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the only raise you give them is in training, then the only way they can turn that 'raise' into something tangible is by leaving. If this is your attitude and you're still shocked they're leaving you've missed something in your calculus.

Sure, but the baseline of comparison here is vs a situation where the job didn't give you raises nor good training. And yes, the employer in OP's example should reconsider providing value through training vs straight cash.

In a static analysis. But in a dynamic analysis, the employee has learned some things and is now in a completely different job market.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically it will work only when the job market liquidity is low. Think of Japan, where changing job is like a lifetime event, training is graciously provided, since the firm assumed that your loyalty is guaranteed. Or in case of some companies in China, where they can sue you if you quit your job before the agreed years are met on your contract. Both seems undesirable to me personally.

This may have been true for some industries historically in japan, however modern day softwave developers will change job every 2-3 years, same as in the west, for the same reasons.

Is that true for Japanese people, or others hired on the salaryman track? If you’re hired out of university by Toyota, Sony or Rakuten isn’t it expected that you’ll be there until retirement?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#305
Here in Budapest (Hungary) we have like 2-3 coding school startups. Their input is somebody who doesn't know what `ls` is, and their output, I think 6-12 months later, is somebody who can set up an AWS/Python/JS/React/etc app. They then "sell" their students to companies. It's a pretty hot space, these companies are getting funding.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#306
post #57
post #54

EDIT: to people emailing me (thanks!), I am currently on PTO overseas so I will respond, but maybe not super timely. Also, we're looking for our first QA and our first DevOps role if non-SEs are reading... If you're willing to work in Texas, send me an email (check my profile). We absolutely do not mind if you have gaps. semi-OT: To all people in this thread who say there is no shortage of developers: if you know any…

I am just curious, why do you need to test somone's ability to find max of a list. Language designers have recognized this as a basic utility and incorporated them into the language. Is the hypothesis that - if someone cannot write a simple algo to find the max of a list then what other difficult tasks he/she can perform ? Even though in reality we all understand no one needs to write a max algorithm.

I don't mind getting downvoted but can someone please explain why - this is an honest question. Many devs have scoffed at interviews when I've asked them some really basic quesitons such as finding max element in an array.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#307
post #54

EDIT: to people emailing me (thanks!), I am currently on PTO overseas so I will respond, but maybe not super timely. Also, we're looking for our first QA and our first DevOps role if non-SEs are reading... If you're willing to work in Texas, send me an email (check my profile). We absolutely do not mind if you have gaps. semi-OT: To all people in this thread who say there is no shortage of developers: if you know any…

How do you react when someone fails to implement the max of a list? And how do they react? I can't imagine how awkward it is for both the interviewer and interviewee.

Can you imagine how awkward it would be to discover it a week into their new job?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the weird thing — they (because there are two cofounders) were actually paying very competitive salaries (for the local market). I was impressed to hear what some of them were making. So it's not the money. This is only half of what I asked. What about the raises? As someone in another thread chain pointed out, the expected raise from job leaping is maybe 15%. How did the raises your friend gave compare to t…

In fact in the good big companies, they crave for employee growth. Time and money for training, meaningful career growth, and pay growth, major tech switches without changing jobs. I find that small companies are often much worse in all these metrics. As a jr employee they’ll never rise to chief architect - your friend, the cofounder, has that job. And is never giving it up. Plus thanks to cash crunch, making shortcu…

> As a jr employee they’ll never rise to chief architect

This is so important, as a relativley junior developer at a 6 person web dev shop, the owner is the only other backend developer. I have no room for climbing, even if I get a job title upgrade or a raise, my responsibilities and the level I work at won't change. I will handle the day to day backend and the owner works on strategic choices. There is only so much impact I can make in this position

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#309
Could you not argue that the move towards hiring developers from bootcamps is not a step towards on-the-job training?

I know of very few examples of knowledge industries where you can go from nothing to "able to pass an interview" within 2-3 months of intense study. The same goes for self-taught developers that learn on the side, and then use those skills to build a portfolio.

I've worked at places where they hire heavily from bootcamps, and a small team of senior developers are tasked with mentoring and training these entry-level developers. From my experience (in the UK), the issue is that people "are" hiring juniors, but the market has become flooded with entry-level and junior-level developers. Bootcamp graduates have become the entry-level, on-the-job trained types, whereas university graduates are expected to have an acceptable level of knowledge to be able to hit the ground running in a junior capacity.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the weird thing — they (because there are two cofounders) were actually paying very competitive salaries (for the local market). I was impressed to hear what some of them were making. So it's not the money. I think what's going on is that after a year at any job you start to see the problems with the code base, and it starts to get repetitive. It will be like that both in big-co and small-co, but in a differen…

> That's the weird thing — they (because there are two cofounders) were actually paying very competitive salaries (for the local market). I was impressed to hear what some of them were making. So it's not the money. This is only half of what I asked. What about the raises? As someone in another thread chain pointed out, the expected raise from job leaping is maybe 15%. How did the raises your friend gave compare to t…

As a junior, the switch job raise is much higher than that, especially if you decide to move to a larger / more active city (which is not that big of a deal as a junior). During my first job I got raised 12% over 2yearish, and swapping and moving to a larger metropolitan area brought an additional 30%-45% (depending on which offer you looked at). Now ofc there are other factor (higher life cost), but still that's massive.
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