Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation • Hacker News Board

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#51

Post by zzzcpan » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 2:42 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #47

ThomPete wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being educated does not shield you from misinformation, unfortunately. I fact I wouldn't be surprised that the well educated is part of the problem when they get into politics because they abstract things and start to think too much in statistics and lose a feeling for what it means to be most people in this world. The end up creating their own misinformation filter. The current political climate has no shortage of w…

Yes this and Joeri’s post are on point. Unless you’re in the realm of mathematics or the physical sciences the more the education the stronger the disputes over “facts”. It’s hubris to think any group can be the objective gatekeeper of truth unless they’re just reporting demonstrable facts like ball scores or weather.

Of course more random education doesn't educate people specifically about influence and propaganda. Why would it?

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#52

Post by throwawaywindev » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 2:42 PM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

The problem is the signal to noise ratio is getting so bad that you don’t know what information to trust.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#53

Post by mrleiter » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #50

mrleiter wrote: post #28

This is a classic example of shifting the blame. Yes, he admits that facebook spent too much time trying to minimise the problem. And indeed they did. But it's not only the misinformation that is the problem, facebook itself is at the heart of the problem. They are one of many, albeit facebook being on the more influential side, platforms through which misinformation is spread. And of course education is the main han…

Is ‘less educated’ code for people with views different to yours?

No, there are some less educated people who share the same views as me. But it is no secret that the degree of education correlates strongly with certain political views. And the people currently in power in America certainly know that and play that to their advantage.

They know full well that their proposed solutions won't work a bit, but instead make them richer along the way. But the less educated people don't know that, they are being abused and mislead. I am not against conservative people and also not against people with different views. We live in a plural society and that is a good thing. It becomes a problem when some of those people can't tell the difference between truth and lie.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#54

Post by 0x445442 » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

hannasanarion wrote: post #43

platz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what you mean by democracy. Suppose you get 100% voter participation through free and fair elections. Are you still sure that fails the definition of democracy? How hard is it to make that case? What if the voters choose an outcome you just don't happen to like? Is that all of a sudden undemocratic?

And if the majority of those voters are opposed to democracy itself, and vote for candidates who promise to take away votes from people they don't like, or establish a theocracy? "America isn't and shouldn't be a democracy" is a common Republican talking point. This has happened in Poland and Hungary and its darn close to happening in the United States.

Not sure what you’re implying with your statement about the Republican talking point. The point of the point is the U.S. was designed to be a Constitutional Republic which isn’t a democracy.

The Constitutional Republic is designed to protect the rights and freedoms of the individual via the Constitution and bill of rights. If by Democracy one is referring solely to majority rule, then protection against individual rights and freedom are lost.

The U.S. should fear the latter, not the former.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#55

Post by hobs » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

Saying "everyone should speak" actually means "everyone should speak according to their purchasing power in the market" right now - so I think your premise, while well meaning, is not realistic.

Having liars with big pockets broadcast lies (propaganda) works very effectively, no "black market suppression of the truth" is needed to weaponize bad ideas.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#56

Post by maratd » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

throwawaywindev wrote: post #52

noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

The problem is the signal to noise ratio is getting so bad that you don’t know what information to trust.

> signal to noise ratio

This is another euphemism for hearing ideas you disagree with. You choose who to friend/follow/read. Occasionally those people will say things you don't agree with.

> you don’t know what information to trust

Just because someone landed a job at [fill in traditional media outlet] does not make them more trustworthy. You're simply being exposed to the reality that their bullshit is just as much bullshit as everything else.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#57

Post by ThomPete » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #51

0x445442 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this and Joeri’s post are on point. Unless you’re in the realm of mathematics or the physical sciences the more the education the stronger the disputes over “facts”. It’s hubris to think any group can be the objective gatekeeper of truth unless they’re just reporting demonstrable facts like ball scores or weather.

Of course more random education doesn't educate people specifically about influence and propaganda. Why would it?

I don't think there is a specific education you can take that will shield you from influence or propaganda.

In my experience, it's about something else. Something more fundamental.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#58

Post by mo3gut » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:06 PM UTC

dahdum wrote: post #37

mo3gut wrote: post #23

Mr Stamos is unhappy with Russia, mentioned repeatedly. Their "activity" needs to be "dealt with". AIPAC, "America's Pro-Israel Lobby", isn't worth a mention. Israel apparently does nothing that needs to be dealt with. Are you Americans on this forum grateful that people like Mr Stamos decide for you which countries should have influence?

Israel is an ally, so their influence is both expected and accepted.

Sounds like a "Yes". Thanks for the reply, dahdum.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#59

Post by harshreality » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

hobs wrote: post #55

noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

Saying "everyone should speak" actually means "everyone should speak according to their purchasing power in the market" right now - so I think your premise, while well meaning, is not realistic. Having liars with big pockets broadcast lies (propaganda) works very effectively, no "black market suppression of the truth" is needed to weaponize bad ideas.

Propaganda from deep-pocketed individuals and organizations is a problem, but the current cure is worse than the disease, particularly when the censorship itself is biased. It takes more to be labelled fringe and justify censorship for left-leaning speech, than it takes for right-leaning speech.

The root problem with modern discourse and social media is subtle, unforced siloing of communication within subgroups, so that there's not enough subgroup-bridging discussion. Overton windows shrink until subgroup-bridging discussion is mostly impossible. That all happens without any active censorship.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#60

Post by yelloweyes » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #56

throwawaywindev wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the signal to noise ratio is getting so bad that you don’t know what information to trust.

> signal to noise ratio This is another euphemism for hearing ideas you disagree with. You choose who to friend/follow/read. Occasionally those people will say things you don't agree with. > you don’t know what information to trust Just because someone landed a job at [fill in traditional media outlet] does not make them more trustworthy. You're simply being exposed to the reality that their bullshit is just as much…

So you're telling me that russian bots spreading lies are merely "ideas you disagree with"? I can't... I can't... jesus...