Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation • Hacker News Board

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#21

Post by someguydave » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #11

someguydave wrote: post #9

If we assume that voters are unable to deal with misinformation then we have already given up on democracy. The next logical step is to decide how to blunt the will of the misinformed voter.

> If we assume that voters are unable to deal with misinformation then we have already given up on democracy That’s like saying we have to give up on capitalism because people can commit fraud. Targeted electoral misinformation is a fixable problem.

If you define the word “capitalism” to mean “unregulated free market” then policing fraud is indeed an infringement in that market freedom.

The analogy breaks down when you realize the claim to legitimacy of the US government rests on the sovereignty of the voter.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#22

Post by Joeri » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #3

It's hard to come up with good policy around this outside of educating people.

It’s not that simple, because there have been many attempts at educating and things haven’t improved.

There’s evidence that awareness of biases makes one more susceptible to them, and that intelligence is also correlated with a higher susceptibility to bias. Intelligence and education give us tools to strengthen the form of our argument, and that enables us to better hang on to bias.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/frontal-cortex/why-smart-peop...

Also, giving people evidence that disproves their core beliefs tends to strengthen those beliefs, until a certain tipping point, so incomplete education may actually be worse than no education.

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

Fixing misinformation is a hard problem. It’s not just a matter of getting people into contact with facts.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#23

Post by mo3gut » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

Mr Stamos is unhappy with Russia, mentioned repeatedly. Their "activity" needs to be "dealt with".

AIPAC, "America's Pro-Israel Lobby", isn't worth a mention. Israel apparently does nothing that needs to be dealt with.

Are you Americans on this forum grateful that people like Mr Stamos decide for you which countries should have influence?

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#24

Post by cwperkins » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #15

After the Trump election where I interestingly enough found myself agreeing with a lot of the critique of the current political system coming from both Sanders and Trump even though I would normally consider myself part of the liberal political spectrum (pro-abortion, against the death sentence, couldn't care less if gay people get married etc) I started digging into things I had taken for granted such as Breibart be…

I wish I had more than one vote to give you sir, but alas, that is not how democracy works. People need to listen to one anothers concerns and avoid demonizing entire groups of people from the heinous acts of a few.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#25

Post by qaq » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #12

qaq wrote: post #3

It's hard to come up with good policy around this outside of educating people.

A lot of very smart, very educated people are creating and spreading this misinformation intentionally or unintentionally.

I guess should have being more specific as in educate people to identify misinformation campaigns. The alternative of giving government powers to sensor information looks even less reasonable.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#26

Post by platz » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:57 PM UTC

nothrabannosir wrote: post #20

platz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamental attribution error. It is not good to assume a mental defect on vast swaths of the population. That itself is attributing an irrational motive for their actions before considering if there may be a rational one. That is itself is the definition of uncharity. (But in a different capacity that what I outlined above) Again, consider that many of these folks are doing so from a rational choice, which is to def…

I like the sound of this, but aren't you basically arguing against the existence of biases? E.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism Seems to me, honestly, like a fair hypothesis for our tribal behavior. Moreso, to be honest, than the majority of people "understanding it to be a zero-sum contest". Do you think that's too cynical?

I'm exaggerating a bit to make a point (my actual view is slightly less Stark) that I think gets brushed off or overlooked too easily (but is important)

I think the reasons are more multivariate than a single psychological principle. But yes, in-groupism is a component I do think. But that is a component against the backdrop of societal and geographical sorting among a whole set of preferences and values e.g. (can predict a lot more about you if you are blue or red because we've all sorted ourselves) as an example of another component.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#27

Post by qaq » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #22

qaq wrote: post #3

It's hard to come up with good policy around this outside of educating people.

It’s not that simple, because there have been many attempts at educating and things haven’t improved. There’s evidence that awareness of biases makes one more susceptible to them, and that intelligence is also correlated with a higher susceptibility to bias. Intelligence and education give us tools to strengthen the form of our argument, and that enables us to better hang on to bias. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/fr…

I think if people can clearly identify even the more obvious misinformation campaigns by foreign powers targeting them that would already help a good bit.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#28

Post by mrleiter » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

This is a classic example of shifting the blame. Yes, he admits that facebook spent too much time trying to minimise the problem. And indeed they did. But it's not only the misinformation that is the problem, facebook itself is at the heart of the problem.

They are one of many, albeit facebook being on the more influential side, platforms through which misinformation is spread. And of course education is the main handle to push to stop spreading of misinformation. But facebook earned I don't know how much money on this and they tried to minimise the problem out of monetary concerns.

We thought the Internet would bring prosperity and an explosion of knowledge growth. And it surely did. But it also connected millions of less educated people who never knew that there were so many others out there - because they never read what they believed in the newspapers. And now they know that many others share their views. Again, education is at the core of a solution to this misinformation crisis. So maybe call the structural problems the burning embers and facebook the accelerant.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#29

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

mo3gut wrote: post #23

Mr Stamos is unhappy with Russia, mentioned repeatedly. Their "activity" needs to be "dealt with". AIPAC, "America's Pro-Israel Lobby", isn't worth a mention. Israel apparently does nothing that needs to be dealt with. Are you Americans on this forum grateful that people like Mr Stamos decide for you which countries should have influence?

[deleted]

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#30

Post by quotemstr » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 2:03 PM UTC

I strongly disagree with this approach. Ideology makes a slave out of reason, so the temptation to label everything that conflicts with one's worldview as "misinformation" will become irresistible. To determine to combat "misinformation" is to appoint yourself the arbiter of what's true and false, and that sort of thing never ends well.

The correct approach is to allow all legal content and let healthy debate reveal what's true and false in the course of time, organically, and without centralized and fallible oversight.