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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

401–410 of 560 posts

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#401

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

> Where is it ethical to work?

Oh I don't know, maybe one of those companies that isn't building software that's used to incite genocide?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#402
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should scientists always be concerned with the ethical consequences of their work? Should Facebook employees always be concerned with the ethical consequences of their work? I think your argument is that the ethics means we really needed enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet several times over? And we really needed to let the government sell the lie that there was a 'missile gap' to the US population? Or was t…

> And we really needed to let the government sell the lie that there was a 'missile gap' to the US population? Or was that lie in order to hide that there were U-2 overflights? Who were we hiding the knowledge of U-2s from? The Soviets, who could see them on radar and were developing ways to shoot them down? Or the US public? From memory the "missile gap" wasn't a government lie to hide anything but an election campa…

Eisenhower could have made the information public. A lie of omission is still a lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap

> According to Robert McNamara, Kennedy was leaked the inflated US Air Force estimates by Senator Stuart Symington, the former Secretary of the Air Force. Unaware that the report was misleading, Kennedy used the numbers in the document and based some of his 1960 election campaign platform on the Republicans being "weak on defense."[5] The missile gap was a common theme.

> Eisenhower refused to refute the claims publicly for fear that public disclosure would jeopardize the secret U-2 flights. Consequently, Eisenhower was frustrated by what he conclusively knew to be Kennedy's erroneous claims that the United States was behind the USSR in its number of missiles.[6]

> In an attempt to defuse the situation, Eisenhower arranged for Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson to be apprised of the information, first with a meeting by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then Strategic Air Command, and finally with the Director of the CIA, Allen Dulles, in July 1960. Still, Kennedy continued to use the same rhetoric, which modern historians have debated as likely being so useful to the campaign that he was willing to ignore the truth.

If you want an explicit lie, the Eisenhower administration lied to the US public saying that the U-2 was for high-altitude weather research. When Powers was shot down, the official US lie was that a high-altitude research flight was missing, and may have 'drifted with an incapacitated pilot across the Soviet border' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2 .

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#403
post #28
post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

My theory is that pay and working conditions at Facebook are as good as they are precisely because of people feeling like this. They are having to pay a premium to attract engineers as a result of the moral opposition.

I disagree. facebook pays a premium because they make a ton of money. Facebook has been a place people have wanted to work for a long time, and its only until January 2016 (which would contradict your theory) the media hate machine turned on them. I am not pro-facebook, but I do call it how I see it.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your profile: > I trade private equity stakes in technology companies. Former aerospace investment banker and before that, algorithmic equity derivatives trader. You're also the one who submitted this article. Somehow I doubt you are actually helping friends at FB find new jobs. I think it's much more likely that you are short FB. There's a lot of your type out there spreading articles like this as much as possi…

> I doubt you are actually helping friends at FB find new jobs I did. > it's much more likely that you are short FB I don’t own a single share, nor am I short a single share, of any public company. I play in private companies’ equities and debts. That’s my day job, and it (along with super-safe bonds) are where I put my money. You may be confusing bankers with fund managers. > you should spend some time thinking abou…

[deleted]

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#405
Finishing up my degree in spring, very few people say no to prestige coming out of new grad, but there are some, and those are absolutely avoiding Facebook among a few others. Currently, the main blacklist companies in my book are Facebook, Palantir, and Uber. Google still isn't evil enough. Amazon gets a bad rep overall for work environment but isn't avoided on moral grounds.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My intended point with regard to wokeness was that college is a place where there is limited downside to screaming your carefully considered, morally pure opinions from the rooftops. People accultured to that kind of environment often don't understand how people outside the college bubble will interpret their comments.

Just because there are no downsides to screaming you carefully considered, morally pure opinions doesn’t make them any less valid. Actually, I’d think the opposite: someone who’s dependent on getting a job at Facebook is far more likely to be be disingenuous in their criticism of the company than someone who has no reason to filter their views.

People seem to have this one backwards. They seem to think only people in the worst position get to make moral statements.

Except that's the opposite of how it works. Upholding morality requires leverage and power. Any person can be broken. That's not a good measure of validity of valid claims.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of people who interview at the big tech companies + a couple small impact oriented startups, but it's very rare for them to take the small impact oriented startups offer. It's hard to turn down 250k a year.

I actually don't think this is true. Many computer science students are not only looking for morality in companies but also excitement. Also it's not 250K. Big Tech might give advantage of like +15K. Also, the work is not nearly as exciting. It's safe and cushy, but as a person in their 20s out of college, safe and cushy isn't fun.

15k? Maybe it widens as you gain experience, but my last job search (at ~3.5 years of experience) resulted in a 90k difference between the highest startup offer and lowest non-startup offer.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of people who interview at the big tech companies + a couple small impact oriented startups, but it's very rare for them to take the small impact oriented startups offer. It's hard to turn down 250k a year.

I actually don't think this is true. Many computer science students are not only looking for morality in companies but also excitement. Also it's not 250K. Big Tech might give advantage of like +15K. Also, the work is not nearly as exciting. It's safe and cushy, but as a person in their 20s out of college, safe and cushy isn't fun.

As a new grad out of college with friends at FB, I can attest that it can actually be 250k (base + equity + returning intern signing bonus). At least for year 1.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#409
post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

This is true of anything, just a bunch of talk. It's easy to be opposed to X when X does not offer you anything. As soon as X is good for you, many (most?) people don't stick to their guns.

Facebook doesn't just come out and offer students contracts. They have to apply and do a phone screen and travel to the office and spend a whole day interviewing. There are so many steps where it's still easy to be opposed but they're doing it anyway.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm kind of surprised they listed a $140k starting pay. That's pretty low for new grads in the industry and very low for Facebook. You are living in a Valley bubble if you think $140k is "pretty low" for a new grad in general, and that's as total comp (not just salary).

This "Valley bubble" probably goes a long way to explain a lot of these attitudes too. Would the average joe/jane, given the offer of a "low" 140K salary at a FAANG, turn it down on ethical grounds? I doubt it. The median US household income appears to be about 60K (1), so at 140K you'd be single-handedly over double the median houshold income before taking into consideration any partner's income. Thats a big deal. T…

>Would the average joe/jane, given the offer of a "low" 140K salary at a FAANG, turn it down on ethical grounds?

I mean, I'm pretty average but I did that for a tiny bit more money considering equity at a startup. I think it's not an unreasonable assumption to make if your competing offers are similar, which a lot of people in this position do. I don't think there are many people who only get Facebook offers.

The calculus is different for interns though, on account of the massive signing bonus.

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