Live data from Hacker News

‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

241–250 of 560 posts

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#241
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb. Consider Joseph Rotblat. He worked on the Manhattan Project because believed that it was needed as a deterrent against a German nuclear weapon. After he learned that Germany had given up on the bomb, he left the Manhattan Project - the only one to do so - and felt betrayed by its use in Japan. "Rotblat believed that scient…

There's some evidence that the use in Japan was partly an attempt to deter the Soviet Union from future aggression.

I don't think I explained my point well enough.

If the Manhattan Project is a useful comparison, then we have to take the totality of the people working on project, including the one person who quit, for moral reasons.

He 'believed that scientists should always be concerned with the ethical consequences of their work'.

In other words, yes, we should apportion some blame to 'the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb'.

(For that matter, Philip Morrison was one of those scientists. He helped load the atomic bombs onto the planes that made the two bomb runs. Certainly there's direct blame there, if blame is to be placed.)

Certainly the rest of the scientific staff did not have the same views, or at least, didn't place the same weight on the different aspects of the ethics.

Even then, remember that Oppenheimer remarked that he felt he had "blood on my hands" because he and others of the scientific staff thought the bombing of Nagasaki was unnecessary. Truman later told Acheson "I don't want to see that son-of-a-bitch in this office ever again."

Regarding your point, and quoting from the WP page on Rotblat: "Rotblat continued to have strong reservations about the use of science to develop such a devastating weapon. In 1985, he related that at a private dinner at the Chadwicks' house at Los Alamos in March 1944, he was shocked to hear the director of the Manhattan Project, Major General Leslie R. Groves, Jr., say words to the effect that the real purpose in making the bomb was to subdue the Soviets."

I interpret that to mean that Rotblat would have considered using the bomb against the Soviets in the way you summarized it as being sufficiently unethical that he would not work on it.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated six years ago, have worked at Microsoft and Dropbox, and anecdotally around a quarter of my friends at either of them wouldn't work at Facebook now. Parent comment is not obviously wrong, and you shouldn't assume bad faith. Your last submission was titled "We're lucky Mark Zuckerberg is in charge" and around half your comment history is devoted to defending Facebook. At least if you're going to question s…

Did you actually do a poll of your coworkers on this topic? :) I think it's pretty reasonable to assume an investment banker isn't going to be much help to FB employees in finding a new job. Claiming that "Facebook will be known for having hired mediocre sell-outs a few years from now." is at best a baseless slander. How in the world is that not in bad faith? Spreading misinformation to aid one's short position is a…

1. No, it's not reasonable to assume a technology-sector investor isn't going to be able to help techie friends find jobs.

2. The "slander" was supported by an anecdote. And this is a comment section -- opinionated statements will be found.

3. What might be closer to slander is the fantastic assumption that the other commenter is shilling for a short position in Facebook. That's a mind-boggling assumption to make on the flimsiest of evidence. Even setting aside that trying to promote your short in a random HN comment is laughable

4. You're curiously silent on your own bias, well noted by pantaloons

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#243
post #49

...the head of the start-up incubator and investment firm, Y Combinator, gave opening remarks, recommending that young people avoid jobs in big tech. “You get to program your life on a totally different scale.... The worst thing that can happen to you is you get a job at Google.” He called those jobs “$100,000 a year welfare” — meaning, he said, that workers can get tethered to the paycheck and avoid taking risks. Wh…

Same reason you'd work for any startup - because startups are fun and interesting? You get a level of autonomy you can never have at an established company, with freedom to experiment and work creatively.

I know a fair number of people who had fun, interesting careers in their 20s. But when we talk about investments and saving, they all seem to suddenly realize that time is limited, and if you’re going to trade it for money, it’s best to get as much money for your time as you comfortably can.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#244

Personal anecdote: I was contacted by a facebook recruiter a few years ago. I started the process and also started thinking about if I would like working there. I realized that I disagree strongly with the product, its effects on society, culture and politics. But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. I just said no thanks before even finishing the "take home" exercise. At the time I…

>But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. How does this matter? Most people don't personally use the products they work on. If someone works on software in flight computers (I don't know the proper term), in most cases I doubt they're pilots actively using said software. I certainly don't personally use the products I work on for my job. A job is a job. Sure some people find work "do…

> flight computers (I don't know the proper term)

avionics?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#245
I remember casually looking at Facebook back in 2010:

I was invited for lunch; I liked their campus, but it just had the "freshman year at college" vibe. Even though I was still early in my career, I felt like I was already too old for that.

Later, when I started the interview process, they demanded that I sign a broad NDA. That was the what really pushed me out. I don't sign broad NDAs to interview for a job.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#246
post #169
post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was going to read the rest of your comment, but I decided it was "Jacobin whinging" so I realized I didn't have to. But the rest of the comment supports the first part, which you seem to agree with. Plus, "Jacobin whinging", seriously? Advocating for a living wage is "Jacobin" now?

I regret that my point may not have come across. I don't actually believe in pejoratively labeling any good-faith argument, and I would not actually use a label like "Jacobin whinging" in earnest. My point is: labeling something is not the same as refuting it.

Apologies, my irony meter is malfunctioning today. I read it twice but I'm so used to reading this serious comments similar to your sarcastic critique online these days, it didn't read as sarcasm.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#248
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it, it's probably just a factor of the West coast talent wars. FB understands that talent is the life blood of any tech companies and is willing to go above and beyond to secure it. No company wants to pay a cent more than it feels it has to.

Except there are companies at the other end of the spectrum that don't seem to care. Apple was almost legendary for its long hours (not sure if that has changed post-Jobs), and perhaps as a more extreme example, the games companies are especially notorious for treating junior devs like garbage. They get away with it because people want to work in the industry for reasons unconnected with pay or work-life balance. Unf…

I’d argue that most people are aware of the working environment at Apple (which has changed, by the way-I know many people who 9-5, though many of those close to deadlines still do work more) and the gaming industry, just as they know what it’s like to work at Facebook.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#249

Few comments on this because I think about this quite a bit. 1) I always read these articles and sigh. Seems like they only focus on 2 elite tech companies at the expense of all the others while only interviewing students at the #1 CS school in the country. I feel like a 2nd class citizen in the industry because of it. When will the normal people be heard? 2) I'm kind of surprised they listed a $140k starting pay. Th…

> I'm kind of surprised they listed a $140k starting pay. That's pretty low for new grads in the industry and very low for Facebook. You are living in a Valley bubble if you think $140k is "pretty low" for a new grad in general, and that's as total comp (not just salary).

This "Valley bubble" probably goes a long way to explain a lot of these attitudes too.

Would the average joe/jane, given the offer of a "low" 140K salary at a FAANG, turn it down on ethical grounds?

I doubt it. The median US household income appears to be about 60K (1), so at 140K you'd be single-handedly over double the median houshold income before taking into consideration any partner's income. Thats a big deal.

This almost flippant attitude to employment and high salaries in silicon valley is somewhat worrying. I feel like people are growing increasingly disconnected from reality of life that the average person on the street has to deal with.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#250

After Susan Fowler wrote her exposè on Uber's culture a couple years ago, many commented saying that they would have trouble attracting talent given their tarnished reputation. Did that ever happen in practice?

Several other things happened near the same time to make Uber no longer look like a rocket ship, it's probably really hard to separate out those effects.
Post reply on HN