‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#211

Post by sjg007 » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:19 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #21

FilterSweep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I don’t blame them. Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms, both across companies and within (compared to other roles). In the Bay, it’s the difference between living comfortably+saving for their future and just making ends meet. It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

> It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb. I'm the last one to defend Facebook here but I don't see how designing an atomic bomb is comparable to working for Facebook, regardless of what you think about the morality of each.

Facebook basically fueled a genocide in Myanmar and extreme violence in other places. The whole fake news thing we went through in 2016 was pioneered by Russia to annex Ukraine. Facebook was warned about these behaviors repeatedly by government and watchdog organizations and apparently did nothing to curtail them. So Facebook is this great tool to stay connected to people but at the same time it has been hijacked to cause real harm.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#212

Post by Jonanin » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

pantaloons wrote: post #204

Jonanin wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your profile: > I trade private equity stakes in technology companies. Former aerospace investment banker and before that, algorithmic equity derivatives trader. You're also the one who submitted this article. Somehow I doubt you are actually helping friends at FB find new jobs. I think it's much more likely that you are short FB. There's a lot of your type out there spreading articles like this as much as possi…

I graduated six years ago, have worked at Microsoft and Dropbox, and anecdotally around a quarter of my friends at either of them wouldn't work at Facebook now. Parent comment is not obviously wrong, and you shouldn't assume bad faith. Your last submission was titled "We're lucky Mark Zuckerberg is in charge" and around half your comment history is devoted to defending Facebook. At least if you're going to question s…

Did you actually do a poll of your coworkers on this topic? :)

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume an investment banker isn't going to be much help to FB employees in finding a new job. Claiming that "Facebook will be known for having hired mediocre sell-outs a few years from now." is at best a baseless slander. How in the world is that not in bad faith?

Spreading misinformation to aid one's short position is a much worse case of bias, in my mind, than what I've said in defense of the company.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#213

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #153

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

> Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? The recent Times article indicates that they are dirtier than Google and Apple, so yes.

[deleted]

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#214

Post by merpnderp » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #96

ralusek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very similar to when you hear people say "I love my job but they don't pay a living wage!" It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

The free market is not fair. It's just fairer than anything else we know of. It's not a meritocracy, just more meritorious than anything else we know of. If you think things are bad when greedy people are pitted against each other, wait until greedy people are pitted against the average man, as they are in nearly every other economic system.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#215

Post by techelitism » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #110

techelitism wrote: post #72

Few comments on this because I think about this quite a bit. 1) I always read these articles and sigh. Seems like they only focus on 2 elite tech companies at the expense of all the others while only interviewing students at the #1 CS school in the country. I feel like a 2nd class citizen in the industry because of it. When will the normal people be heard? 2) I'm kind of surprised they listed a $140k starting pay. Th…

> I'm kind of surprised they listed a $140k starting pay. That's pretty low for new grads in the industry and very low for Facebook. If it's just salary, not including equity, that's by no means "very low". Where are you finding that new grads are typically getting more?

Total compensation obviously because FB stock is liquid. New grad salary is in the $110-115k range at FB. I know a few companies that do pay it or more base (2Sigma, Snowflake Computing and Jane Street come to mind).

I had offers for $130k base, $130k base + equity and $130k base + bonus and those were considered to be below average by most of my peers.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#216

Post by the_af » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

marssaxman wrote: post #138

Animats wrote: post #49

...the head of the start-up incubator and investment firm, Y Combinator, gave opening remarks, recommending that young people avoid jobs in big tech. “You get to program your life on a totally different scale.... The worst thing that can happen to you is you get a job at Google.” He called those jobs “$100,000 a year welfare” — meaning, he said, that workers can get tethered to the paycheck and avoid taking risks. Wh…

Same reason you'd work for any startup - because startups are fun and interesting? You get a level of autonomy you can never have at an established company, with freedom to experiment and work creatively.

The (in?)famous article Don't Call Yourself a Programmer [0] argues otherwise. The author warns against working for a startup, unless you're the founder or committed to what he calls a lifestyle. Instead, he argues you can work for a hi-tech big corp, enjoying autonomy and fun projects as well as a good work-life balance.

Not that I agree with everything in that essay -- some pretty cynical and controversial statements there -- but what he says about startups seems worth considering.

[0] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#217

Post by jnbiche » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:27 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #187

AlexandrB wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

> This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. This seems to capture the current intellectual zeitgeist very well. Once we name something, we can dismiss it without engaging it. I was going to read the rest of your comment, but I decided it was "Jacobin whinging" so I realized I didn't have to.

> I was going to read the rest of your comment, but I decided it was "Jacobin whinging" so I realized I didn't have to.

But the rest of the comment supports the first part, which you seem to agree with.

Plus, "Jacobin whinging", seriously? Advocating for a living wage is "Jacobin" now?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#218

Post by eesmith » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:27 PM UTC

leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

The 'kids' of the late 1960s included many college students and enlisted men who were against US involvement in Vietnam.

They were ridiculed for not knowing any better, for being 'young and naturally earnest', etc., though the exact phrasing used was different.

And yet, they were right. It was their elders who didn't know better.

Since it seems you are using an argument which is structurally similar to the ones used against the kids of the 1960s, it doesn't seem like it should put much trust in it.

Here's a famous snarky comment from a then 24-year old: "Don't trust anyone over 30" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Weinberg#%22Don't_trust_a...

“I was being interviewed by a newspaper reporter, and he was making me very angry. It seemed to me his questions were implying that we were being directed behind the scenes by Communists or some other sinister group. I told him we had a saying in the movement that we don't trust anybody over 30. It was a way of telling the guy to back off, that nobody was pulling our strings.”

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#219

Post by AlexandrB » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:31 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #187

AlexandrB wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

> This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. This seems to capture the current intellectual zeitgeist very well. Once we name something, we can dismiss it without engaging it. I was going to read the rest of your comment, but I decided it was "Jacobin whinging" so I realized I didn't have to.

> This seems to capture the current intellectual zeitgeist very well. Once we name something, we can dismiss it without engaging it.

In the internet age, this is a necessity because the other pattern is the same claims repeated over and over again with the expectation that a comprehensive rebuttal must be provided each time. At some point you have to name the thing so it can be added as an entry to Wikipedia and move on. See also: how global warming denialists have an evergreen grab bag of false claims to pull from and expect a thesis-length answer to each one.

Also, this is nothing new. Commonly referenced fallacies like tu quoque are a way of saying that the other person is arguing from shaky ground, and their argument does not need a complete rebuttal until they refine it a bit. In fact, the comment I was replying to can be considered a derivative of the just-world fallacy[1], substituting the hand of the free market for the kind of ephemeral karma that the original just-world fallacy implies.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#220

Post by imgabe » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:31 PM UTC

leroy_masochist wrote: post #205

imgabe wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kids are computer science students from Berkeley. They're not going to be hurting for job offers. If it helps filter out dumbass employers who are going to hold their opinions about Facebook against them, so much the better.

Of course they're not going to be hurting for job offers, in general. The issue is that hiring teams at high-performing, stressed-out early stage startups (including many that are doing important work that will change people's lives for the better) can be ridiculously petty and catty in the hiring process -- especially when they're looking at 10+ qualified candidates for every new hire. Regardless of how well these s…

I get what you're saying, but I think people waste way too much time worrying about what hypothetical future employers might think about something.

Yes, it's possible some future employer might take offense to what they said and throw their resume in the trash. It's equally likely some other employer with an equally awesome opportunity will agree with them and admire them for having the guts to speak their mind and with 10 bland inoffensive candidates and one who was quoted in the NY Times, they'll choose to call the latter. As a bonus, they're probably going to get along much better with the employer who liked what they said.

You can't predict how some imaginary future people are going to react. Be true to yourself and let the rest work itself out. Optimizing to try and please the sensibilities of every imaginable person is both impossible and miserable.