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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#181

Post by spike021 »

wesleytodd wrote: post #46

Personal anecdote: I was contacted by a facebook recruiter a few years ago. I started the process and also started thinking about if I would like working there. I realized that I disagree strongly with the product, its effects on society, culture and politics. But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. I just said no thanks before even finishing the "take home" exercise. At the time I…

>But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years.

How does this matter? Most people don't personally use the products they work on.

If someone works on software in flight computers (I don't know the proper term), in most cases I doubt they're pilots actively using said software.

I certainly don't personally use the products I work on for my job.

A job is a job. Sure some people find work "doing what they love" or doing things they enjoy/can benefit from personally, but not everybody, and that's certainly not a standard.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#182

Post by mawburn »

jedberg wrote: post #137
mawburn wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, even Netflix has a famous history of having a firing culture. Which from the outside looking in, seems toxic and incredibly unethical. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-10-26/netfli...

That's the internal reputation, not external. And as I said, many of us liked that culture. I liked that fact that I didn't have to deal with people who were clearly there just to collect a paycheck. Those folks didn't last long. Like I said, you had to take control of your own destiny with little guidance. If you like that kind of thing, Netflix is a great place.

I have worked in places that refuse to fire anyone and it's not fun. The cruft just builds up.

But, plenty of places are willing to fire people who have given up or completely check out and nobody is really has that aspect of their company culture talked about as much as Netflix's.

I'm not really trying to imply what Netflix does is wrong if it works for them, but it could definitely be interpreted as unethical and sounds like it could be toxic. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and saying that every company has their skeletons, even respectable companies like Netflix.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#183

Post by lalos »

Animats wrote: post #49

...the head of the start-up incubator and investment firm, Y Combinator, gave opening remarks, recommending that young people avoid jobs in big tech. “You get to program your life on a totally different scale.... The worst thing that can happen to you is you get a job at Google.” He called those jobs “$100,000 a year welfare” — meaning, he said, that workers can get tethered to the paycheck and avoid taking risks. Wh…

The head of YC will always give advice that helps their cause. They will not say "go get a job elsewhere and don't work for the companies we invest in". Setting aside if that is good advice or not you should always consider the motive behind it. In this case, they are too biased to be trustworthy so don't try to analyze something possibly thrown in bad faith. Plus, I know for a fact that they have invested on companies started by recent grads that started their careers at big corps and then jumped ship. You gotta find a problem to fix somewhere, right?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#184

Post by thelittleone »

cobookman wrote: post #147
AlexandrB wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

I've personally worked for less pay to work on fun projects. I've also taken on unenjoyable projects for more money. If it weren't for the money you'd have a heck of a time recruiting VPs

When discussing deals, jobs etc, an old boss of mine used to ask "is the juice worth the squeeze?". A job that you are morally against requires more squeeze, so you expect more juice.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#185

Post by avinium »

tombert wrote: post #167
marssaxman wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason you'd work for any startup - because startups are fun and interesting? You get a level of autonomy you can never have at an established company, with freedom to experiment and work creatively.

As someone who has worked for five separate startups, I have to disagree. While you do get close to your teammates, in my experience the managers in startup-land tend to be a lot less flexible because they have their vision of how something is supposed to be done. I work for a giant evil megacorporation now, and I honestly feel like I have more freedom here to explore new stuff than I ever did as a JS/PHP/GOLANG/MONG…

It's an interesting dynamic. BigCo doesn't live or die by a single employee or customer, so they can afford for devs to explore tech/ideas/etc.

But in terms of actually commercializing/releasing something, there's so many hoops to jump through that good ideas simply get stifled.

Startups are the opposite - they can ill afford a developer spending a week learning NewStack, but if someone floats an idea that fits (or improves) their business model, they can execute in the blink of an eye.

As with most things in life, there's pros and cons to both.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#186

Post by rinze »

yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecunia_non_olet

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#187

Post by haberman »

AlexandrB wrote: post #96
ralusek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very similar to when you hear people say "I love my job but they don't pay a living wage!" It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

> This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand.

This seems to capture the current intellectual zeitgeist very well. Once we name something, we can dismiss it without engaging it.

I was going to read the rest of your comment, but I decided it was "Jacobin whinging" so I realized I didn't have to.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#188

Post by craigsmansion »

bepotts wrote: post #113
Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

And it's so transparent at this point. I've listened to podcasts with reporters and they lament the rise of Facebook and how "Facebook is stealing their business" through ads and algorithm changes that hurt them. But the bias doesn't matter because everyone on the internet hates them (and Google) so they just rush to pile on. Anything negative about Facebook gets to the front page very quickly. The thing is, Facebook…

> you don't get billions of users by being evil.

Tobacco companies would disagree, no, actually, they would agree, full-heartedly, and pay well for your study that backs that up.

> Their engineering team, quality of life, and compensation is extremely hard to beat.

Working for Facebook in any meaningful technical capacity makes one a Machiavellian opportunist. For some, that's never worth it.

> As a recent college graduate

Yes, money is great and alluring. You can buy stuff with it, except for stuff you can't buy.

> there really isn't a better way to keep up with friends, family

Facebook puts a tax on being human, on trying to exist outside of a social vacuum. Doesn't that bother you?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#189

Post by aylmao »

potato1234 wrote: post #41
Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

Is that actually true? It seems like the New York Times stock is doing pretty well in the last few years.

Ever since Trump was elected, yes. It's been climbing up from about $10 in November 2016 to the high $20s.

Before that it was fairly flat, after being in free fall from the mid-$40s range in 2004, to like 5 bucks in 2009 (which is coincidentally the rise of social media: Facebook 2004, Youtube 2005, Twitter 2006, etc).

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#190

Post by xxpor »

eesmith wrote: post #99
FilterSweep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I don’t blame them. Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms, both across companies and within (compared to other roles). In the Bay, it’s the difference between living comfortably+saving for their future and just making ends meet. It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

> It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb. Consider Joseph Rotblat. He worked on the Manhattan Project because believed that it was needed as a deterrent against a German nuclear weapon. After he learned that Germany had given up on the bomb, he left the Manhattan Project - the only one to do so - and felt betrayed by its use in Japan. "Rotblat believed that scient…

The difference is the nuclear arms race was inevitable. The soviets would have made it eventually anyway, and then what would we (the US) have done?

Facebook on the other hand is not inevitable.

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