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An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

bbc.com

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Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#41

Post by gamblor956 »

lujim wrote: post #39
gamblor956 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why the US Constitution is relevant to a case under Indian law involving Indian citizens in India?

I get the impression that you are asking that not because you don't know the answer, but because this is a politically motivated topic for you and you don't like the implication.

No, I really don't know the answer to why someone is bringing up a point of Constitutional law in a case governed by an entirely different set of laws. Commonwealth countries like India have very different definitions of free speech rights than the US, and India has some of the most restrictive free speech laws of the former British colonies.

To be more blunt: in India, people can and have been imprisoned for saying negative things about other religions, and those punishments were upheld by the courts.

In America, people might get jailed at the local level in certain parts of the country by an overzealous sheriff if they badmouth Christianity. And then they get released within a few hours, or a few days tops. And then they sue and receive a settlement in the millions of dollars to compensate them for the violation of their civil rights.

So really, not at all similar.

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#42

Post by gamblor956 »

anonlastname wrote: post #36
gamblor956 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why the US Constitution is relevant to a case under Indian law involving Indian citizens in India?

obviously because having such a clause in Indian law would resolve this situation

India, like most other Commonwealth countries, does not have the American First Amendment tradition, and their free speech laws are more restrictive.

Defamation, for example, and discussions of religion, are especially dangerous grounds since what would be protected speech in the US (and generally non-controversial) is not protected in India and could even lead to riots, lynching, etc.

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#43

Post by hobs »

merpnderp wrote: post #23
hobs wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religiosity has had a stranglehold in "the west" and defined it at least a thousand years. This is not a muslim problem. The evangelicals are alive and well.

And thank god for that. Before western religion came to the forefront, the idea of individual worth wasn’t really a thing and 99.9% of the world were either some sort of slave or slavemaster.

Didnt downvote you, but Christianity has constant themes of slaves and masters, being a slave to christ, and historically the cultures which adopted christianity have continued to have slaves (pre and post adoption.)

Sooo, maybe? But I dont know if that point is well made.

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#44

Post by merpnderp »

hobs wrote: post #43
merpnderp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And thank god for that. Before western religion came to the forefront, the idea of individual worth wasn’t really a thing and 99.9% of the world were either some sort of slave or slavemaster.

Didnt downvote you, but Christianity has constant themes of slaves and masters, being a slave to christ, and historically the cultures which adopted christianity have continued to have slaves (pre and post adoption.) Sooo, maybe? But I dont know if that point is well made.

It obviously wasn't a fast transition, but Christianity brought around the concept of absolute religious equality. A novel idea to the world, and likely the catalyst that changed thousands of years of slavery.

I know it isn't in fashion to credit Christianity with anything, but what other philosophy of the era could have eventually ended slavery, given slavery is likely the state of man ever since Grog the caveman threatened his brother-son with a beating if he didn't fetch more water.

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#45

Post by Yetanfou »

The same thing happens in Sweden where an artist named Dan Park has been sentenced to 3 months in prison [1, Swedish] for breaking the 'hets mot folkgrupp' (incitement against a specific group) law. This is not the first time he was sentenced to prison for his work, in 2014 he got 6 months for another piece. The mentioned law is controversial in that it criminalises speech or other forms of expression which is subjectively deemed to be offensive against groups without specifying what it takes to actually violate the law which makes it open to wide interpretation. Dan Park is critical of the Swedish migration policies and uses controversial imagery to attract attention to what he considers to be important issues. This used to be possible without running the risk of imprisonment until an amendment to the law was passed in 1982 [3].

This is the law text used [2]:

"Den som i uttalande eller i annat meddelande som sprids hotar eller uttrycker missaktning för folkgrupp eller annan sådan grupp av personer med anspelning på ras, hudfärg, nationellt eller etniskt ursprung, trosbekännelse eller sexuell läggning, döms för hets mot folkgrupp till fängelse i högst två år eller om brottet är ringa, till böter.

Är brottet grovt döms till fängelse i lägst sex månader och högst fyra år. Vid bedömande av om brottet är grovt skall särskilt beaktas om meddelandet haft ett särskilt hotfullt eller kränkande innehåll och spritts till ett stort antal personer på ett sätt som varit ägnat att väcka betydande uppmärksamhet."

This translates to:

"Anyone who in speech or any other form of expression threatens or expresses contempt for a group of persons identified by race, skin colour, national or ethnic origin, creed or sexual orientation is sentenced for incitement against a group to prison for up to two years or if the crime is of a lesser degree, to a fine.

For serious crimes the sentence is imprisonment for at least six months and no more than four years. In assessing whether the offence is serious, particular attention should be paid to whether the message had a particularly threatening or infringing content and was spread to a large number of persons in a manner that was designed attract significant attention."

[1] https://nyheteridag.se/dan-park-efter-fangelsedomen-vansinne...

[2] https://lagen.nu/1962:700#K16P8S1

[3] https://lagen.nu/prop/1981/82:58#B2

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#46

Post by lujim »

gamblor956 wrote: post #41
lujim wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression that you are asking that not because you don't know the answer, but because this is a politically motivated topic for you and you don't like the implication.

No, I really don't know the answer to why someone is bringing up a point of Constitutional law in a case governed by an entirely different set of laws. Commonwealth countries like India have very different definitions of free speech rights than the US, and India has some of the most restrictive free speech laws of the former British colonies. To be more blunt: in India, people can and have been imprisoned for saying…

I was using this particular case as an example of why those of us in the U.S should be grateful for the First Amendment.

You understood that from the beginning but it rubbed you the wrong way for some reason. Let me guess, you think that offensive speech shouldn't fall under the protection of the 1st Amendment? That would be a real shocker.

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#47

Post by intended »

hobs wrote: post #22
intended wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This question has vexed me all the while I have watched it unfold. The first inkling I had that something was off, was a magazine article talking about rising religiosity in middle eastern countries. That’s the first time the movie, where humanity pushed back religion and superstition, had tracking issues. we saw that increasing wealth meant even bigger displays of religious dedication. It turns out that a large part…

Religiosity has had a stranglehold in "the west" and defined it at least a thousand years. This is not a muslim problem. The evangelicals are alive and well.

It’s the same for every religion. Muslims were just the first to appear in an article for me .

Hinduism, Christianity - all of them have the same pattern of behavior.

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#48

Post by pbhjpbhj »

mayniac wrote: post #20
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else posted about a very poor taste joke about Grenfell leading to an arrest and people being put in custody, for real. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appea... That's mad. People who commit ABH, hit-and-runs, deal class A drugs and such don't always get taken in to custody -- we regularly have reports (in our local news) of people convicted who commit further crimes because they're out…

>Why did they watch it? They could probably say the same about Towering Inferno, or an episode of Game of Thrones or myriad other things. It's all getting ridiculous. ...really????? It was all over the news. We have the BBC on one screen at work constantly. I saw the footage a few times the day after it happened completely inadvertendly. Not to mention it being all over social media and pretty much unavoidable. "Just…

I didn't see it until this comment thread. The BBC/your Facebook friends are the problem there, if it's offensive why would you play it or popularise it.

Presumably you'd like BBC management and your social media contacts to also be imprisoned? Isn't it inconsistent not to.

If just seeing this is an offense worthy of imprisonment then those on social media, and the BBC cause far more offense.

Re: An Indian man in prison for cracking 'offensive' jokes

#49

Post by msla »

i_am_nomad wrote: post #21
Tsubasachan wrote: post #10

Makes me appreciate my own country where religion is a minority and offending people is a legitimate art form.

Offending _certain_ people, no doubt. I'm sure there are some groups of people in your country against whom no offense is permitted.

> I'm sure there are some groups of people in your country against whom no offense is permitted.

Not true in America, certainly.

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