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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#61

Post by steelframe »

nradov wrote: post #29
leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

What should the age limit be for publishing snarky comments?

The same age that rental car companies have converged on for "enough" judgement to have developed.

Personally, I was ridiculously vulnerable to influence by social groups between the ages of 16 and 25. So much so, that I impulsively joined the Mormon church and threw two years away trying to convert other people to Mormonism. I also wrote an anti-Microsoft rant in a newspaper editorial, since I was so caught up in the Free Software hysteria of the time.

Fast forward 8 years, and I'm ashamed to have the name "Brigham Young" on my resume, and I work at Microsoft -- hoping nobody ever runs across the misguided crap I wrote about my employer in that local newspaper.

Several of my colleagues wish some public things wouldn't show up in Google searches for idiotic things they did because of societal pressure before their "adult" brains fully developed. They really are much more reasonable and responsible people now than they were then.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#62

Post by Kadin »

jorblumesea wrote: post #31
gpm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that pay and working conditions at Facebook are as good as they are precisely because of people feeling like this. They are having to pay a premium to attract engineers as a result of the moral opposition.

I doubt it, it's probably just a factor of the West coast talent wars. FB understands that talent is the life blood of any tech companies and is willing to go above and beyond to secure it. No company wants to pay a cent more than it feels it has to.

Except there are companies at the other end of the spectrum that don't seem to care. Apple was almost legendary for its long hours (not sure if that has changed post-Jobs), and perhaps as a more extreme example, the games companies are especially notorious for treating junior devs like garbage. They get away with it because people want to work in the industry for reasons unconnected with pay or work-life balance.

Unfortunately, I don't know if those new grads realize, when they work in a "sexy" industry, that they are basically paying, with either salary or working conditions, for the privilege. It seems like many don't realize this until a couple of years in, when the shine wears off...

At least at Facebook, you're starting out with your eyes open and know what you're getting into.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#63

Post by cronix »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #47
nradov wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should the age limit be for publishing snarky comments?

I don't really think about it in terms of an age limit. To spell it out, my quibble is that the reporter quoted these kids by name and got them to agree to have their picture taken for publication, for a story that will likely give at least some prospective employers pause at some point.

It could also have the opposite effect and make the candidate more attractive, depending on who's doing the looking.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#64

Post by ggggtez »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

Oh please. "19-year-old kids" can sign their life away to the military. They can vote in elections.

To suggest that we shouldn't allow people who are adults by every meaning of the word, voice their opinions publicly and attributed to themselves is ludicrous.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#65

Post by reaperducer »

Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

That's a lovely conspiracy theory, and it makes people feel better about the situation, but it's not how things work in real life.

Speaking as someone who worked in this field for a couple of decades, it's more likely that one or more New York Times reporters have developed good sources inside Facebook, and are milking them.

The New York Times didn't make Facebook a monster, Facebook did.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#66

Post by about_help »

mehrdadn wrote: post #21
FilterSweep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I don’t blame them. Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms, both across companies and within (compared to other roles). In the Bay, it’s the difference between living comfortably+saving for their future and just making ends meet. It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

> It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb. I'm the last one to defend Facebook here but I don't see how designing an atomic bomb is comparable to working for Facebook, regardless of what you think about the morality of each.

It is an extreme example to illustrate the point, not a direct comparison of FB to atomic bombs.

However, one might argue that FB is actually worse. It is hard to quantify widespread societal effects and determine if they would have occurred through other channels. The massive privacy violations across the world through FB is another item that is hard to quantify yet 100% morally wrong.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#67

Post by dieterrams »

Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

Source re: motivations?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#68

Post by ralusek »

bradenb wrote: post #53
ralusek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very similar to when you hear people say "I love my job but they don't pay a living wage!" It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that.

> It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that. I don't buy that. I don't think enjoying your job and being paid well need to be mutually exclusive. I think it's in an employer's best interest that their employees enjoy their job. Part of that is that an employee has to not feel the stress of being underpaid or overworked.

I just mean that "enjoying your job" has a monetary value. The employer can recognize that or not, but the employee always does.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#69

Post by jfk13 »

FilterSweep wrote: post #18
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

And I don’t blame them. Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms, both across companies and within (compared to other roles). In the Bay, it’s the difference between living comfortably+saving for their future and just making ends meet. It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

> Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms

Perhaps, though I tend to think that developers are largely overcompensated for the benefit they provide to society as a whole. (Yes, I'm one of them.)

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#70

Post by ggggtez »

steelframe wrote: post #61
nradov wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should the age limit be for publishing snarky comments?

The same age that rental car companies have converged on for "enough" judgement to have developed. Personally, I was ridiculously vulnerable to influence by social groups between the ages of 16 and 25. So much so, that I impulsively joined the Mormon church and threw two years away trying to convert other people to Mormonism. I also wrote an anti-Microsoft rant in a newspaper editorial, since I was so caught up in th…

Have you ever considered that some people do things when they are 16-25 that they aren't ashamed of?
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