Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany plans €3B in AI investments

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 161 posts

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#91

Post by bitL »

hobofan wrote: post #88
bitL wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different if you have a shot at being rich in the Bay Area via a successful exit as an early employee, or if you, as in case of Berlin, get a laughable equity and instead are motivated by the "coolness" of startups and Berlin being a city for "hipsters", trading your peak effort/prime years for literally nothing. Of course, start up is a lottery in SF as well, but the potential wins are orders of magnitude highe…

I value equity at 0, so that's why might be seeing them as not that different. If you are a bit of a startup veteran you can also make good bank at German startups, probably even more so if you come from SF. There are sadly (but also understandably) few software engineers that stay in the startup ecosystem for long, and those that do can be quite valued. That combined with the low cost of living, actually makes it ve…

In the Bay Area you now pay $3k/month for a room with 2 roommates ;-) Similar situation is going on around Seattle and Boston/Cambridge as well, though it's not as bad yet. Of course, more distant locations have lower rents, but one also wastes too much time by commuting.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#92

Post by hobofan »

StreamBright wrote: post #79
bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

Sorry but why Berlin? Munich has several very successful startups and excellent engineering community with serious investors and companies who can be either clients or potential purchasers of these startups. Why do you chose Berlin as a representative of German startup scene? I know they had some success but there is so much more in Germany. goo.gl/uPLVMy https://www.eu-startups.com/tag/munich/

Hardware startups => Munich

Software startups => Berlin

As this thread is (mostly) about investments in AI, which in the German startup scene has been happening more in Berlin than in Munich AFAIK, it's not a understandable choice. Also as Munichs startup scene is younger, there have been less exits, so "success" is something the jury is still out on.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#93

Post by zeroname »

zahrc wrote: post #80
zeroname wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. I can't find any evidence that it does. It seems to be common practice: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/342740-unpaid-ove... If you receive a salary, you don't get paid by the hour. If your contract says you don't have a right for compensation (monetary or otherwise) for extra hours, then you don't. Negotiating such terms is up to the employee (or the…

Use German resources if you want to learn about Germany. This is no offense but it's an annoying fact. https://www.arbeitsrecht.org/arbeitnehmer/arbeitszeit/so-lan... Tldr; employees and employers have to make sure that no-one oversteps the 10 hour maximum. Basically I could get fired if I do, because my employer could get into trouble.

> Use German resources if you want to learn about Germany.

This is an English speaking forum. Unless you have evidence that the English resources contradict the german ones, calling me out on this is pointless.

> Tldr; employees and employers have to make sure that no-one oversteps the 10 hour maximum.

That's not the point. The point is do you have a right to get compensated for extra hours. Let's say you're hired for 36hrs/week but the reality is closer to 40. The contract says you're not entitled to compensation for overtime. As far as the law is concerned, I see no problem here whatsoever.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#94

Post by bitL »

odiroot wrote: post #83
StreamBright wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but why Berlin? Munich has several very successful startups and excellent engineering community with serious investors and companies who can be either clients or potential purchasers of these startups. Why do you chose Berlin as a representative of German startup scene? I know they had some success but there is so much more in Germany. goo.gl/uPLVMy https://www.eu-startups.com/tag/munich/

Do you think that Munich has generally better culture in this industry? I don't even mean startups, just asking in general.

Munich is generally not as open to foreigners as Berlin. Even more foreigners are in Frankfurt, but most hate living there, despite getting a funding is much easier than in Berlin/Munich - it's fun to see ICOs popping up there 1 year after they were relevant, so if you follow US trends, you can apply them without much effort over there a year later and be celebrated for copying some already well-known idea.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#95

Post by bitL »

jashmatthews wrote: post #72
bitL wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News for you: FAANG companies pay garbage salaries in their EU offices (Switzerland is not EU). Source: glassdoor.com

L5 SWE in London is ~US$200k total comp. No, not quite as much as SF, but that's still insane money outside of finance.

£160k/year won't allow you to even buy a family home within 1 hour distance to the office over 10 years that is around maximum you'd spend @ FAANG as a SWE. It's truly pointless to feel good about it even if it is considered "insane money" due to really low London engineering salaries (worse than Munich on average). For the same work you'd likely get 350k CHF in Zurich (and won't be able to buy apartment either as Swiss aren't selling).

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#96

Post by stakhanov »

Why is everyone talking about startups? It sounds to me like this is talking about research. The problem with publicly funded science projects in Europe: Salaries/Hourly Rates are set at very low levels and the rulebooks make zero allowance for being able to pay better people more money.

Over the decades of doing this type of funding they've created a caste of technology workers who wouldn't even have jobs in technology if it weren't for the fact that they can go from one government-funded project to the next, where the quality of your work means little and the willingness to work for little money means everything. Every couple of years they slap a new label on what kind of technology it is that they want created, but the people doing the work stay the same people, and the output remains nonexistent because no one is even asking for any in a meaningful way.

Plus 3B over 6 years for such a huge economy isn't really an impressive sum of money at all.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#97

Post by orbifold »

Matthias247 wrote: post #90
orbifold wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are really ignorant statements. Bosch, Siemens, BMW etc. definitely pay well and employ plenty of talented people.

The pay well compared to other german companies. However not compared to US/FAANG companies. As a reference, most of those companies will pay engineers according to the IG Metall Tarif, which can e.g. be found there: https://www.igmetall.de/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2018_78d3e... This is per month, and there's 13.26 monthly salaries per year. Engineers will typically not receive the highest lines which are reserved f…

So EG15 at 13.26 monthly salaries works out to about 70000, which is roughly a Assistenzarzt (medical doctor) makes after 4 years of work. If that is indeed true it is pretty pathetic. From what I've heard of people moving into industry with doctorates in physics, some of them make significantly more. One is a director of research at Bosch, the other works at IBM in Germany. Both had starting salaries north of 100k. Same is true of compensation at Siemens, I guess the key is to not be payed according to some Tarif.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#98

Post by StreamBright »

bitL wrote: post #94
odiroot wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that Munich has generally better culture in this industry? I don't even mean startups, just asking in general.

Munich is generally not as open to foreigners as Berlin. Even more foreigners are in Frankfurt, but most hate living there, despite getting a funding is much easier than in Berlin/Munich - it's fun to see ICOs popping up there 1 year after they were relevant, so if you follow US trends, you can apply them without much effort over there a year later and be celebrated for copying some already well-known idea.

I disagree. The companies in my network (anecdotal evidence) are full with international people. In our office we have nationals from 13 countries. This is the most diverse environment that I have ever seen (including San Francisco). There are some companies however who are hiring strictly Germans, just like with anything else the market will correct these mistakes. This is not the norm but the exception though. I am not sure what you are talking about when saying it is not as open. Renting an apartment is the most difficult part of moving to Munich. It is really bad. There are scammers, people do not want to deal with you if you don't speak German, etc, but this the downside. Getting registered, sorting out bank accounts, internet, mobile phone, socialising and any other aspect of being an ex-pat in Munich is average. The housing situation is the the result of supply and demand imbalance. I have had similar experience in San Francisco when people do not even reply to my email when I was using my Central European name but they were more than happy to reply to Steve. There are several options to mitigate that, you can just move to a smaller town around Munich the train connection is pretty good. Were you referring to the housing situation?

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#99

Post by omnimus »

distances wrote: post #69
rurban wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 50%, it's more like 30%. German salaries are totally anti-engineering and pro-management.

I think this applies to all of Europe though. London salaries are a bit higher, but of course not at the US levels.

UK and Germany are also the countries with highest salaries if you don't count Scandinavia. Try to go to Poland or Czechia thats german border countries where the salaries are even much lower.

Then again salaries in europe just work in very different way.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#100

Post by outside1234 »

raverbashing wrote: post #50
outside1234 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German firms (like Deutsche Telekom) have a ton of redundant jobs because of their inability to make needed structural changes because of the work councils and labor laws. This is why firms like Google are hiring in Switzerland and the United Kingdom instead of France and Germany.

I don't see why one relates with the other, unless you're saying Google doesn't hire in those countries because of Labour Laws

Yes - it is because of labour laws.
Post reply on HN