Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 214 posts

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#191

Post by dhimes »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #178
EvanAnderson wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. And one can have those things without religion. Teaching kids to blindly accept matters that are unfalsifiable, doesn't seem like a positive thing. Acting as an example to kids by being discriminatory toward those who do not blindly accept the unfalsifiable doesn't seem like a positive thing either. Edit: minor phrasing

Teaching kids respect for other's views on the subject of faith

If by respect you mean tolerance, I agree. But I cannot respect, for example, those that believe (as per Leviticus) practicing homosexuals should be put to death.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#192

Post by laumars »

nailer wrote: post #182
laumars wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re still just focused on specific examples of influence. What about TV (kids shows, adverts, etc) or stories? What about what kids see when out and about (eg these kids will notice other people in shops). And I very much doubt the only children they ever play with are those who’s parents are lesbians. What about other forms of day care, soft play centres etc. Or other friends who aren’t lesbians? Or other family?…

> However I’m not in anyway implying that a child’s behaviour is 100% down to nurture. Clearly there is going to be a biological element as well. I think we're basically agreed here: yes, other influences exist, but there's a huge biological element. Even if you remove TV, other family, etc it wouldn't surprise me if there's similar results.

It depends on what your saying it's going to be similar to. The problem we have is this is all subjective from the outset. eg what do you define as feminine and masculine? Is a toy digger masculine and a tea set feminine? What about a toy kitchen? And to what degree would you say that playing with something makes a child more subjectively more feminine or masculine? Playing with a digger 1 hour a week or 30 hours a week?

...and that's just measuring toys. Trying to measure behaviours is going to be an order of magnitude more complex.

So there's no real way to do this scientifically - at least not with the tools I'm familiar with. Observationally I've definitely seen the gender biases aren't as clear cut as some people describe. But that's just anecdotal and subject to pockets of localised anomalies. Plus I have seen behavioural differences between the genders with the way young kids have played with the same toys (eg a toy cars) even though there's been no definitive difference with the toys they chose to play.

It does help you appreciate why even the experts don't have a consensus on how much of a child's personality is learned and how much is biological...and that's without addressing the issue of how much of those biological effects are down to a persons sex (eg a person might be wired to be more caring but that might not be because they're female) - which is the question we're specifically asking.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#193

Post by bluecalm »

nailer wrote: post #134
bluecalm wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I'm just saying that it makes absolutely zero sense to do it for scouting Boys are stronger than girls so having boys only or girls only makes it easier to organize physical exercises/tests/requirements. It's also likely boys are in general interested in other things than girls so having gender separation allows more kids doing what they enjoy. One more reason could be that having genders separated removes the aspe…

I think your post is entirely reasonable (and it worries me to see generally acknowledged facts, like gender differences - girls interested in people, boys in systems - being downmodded on HN). But there are girls with typically male interests and boys with typically female interests. If a boy wants to do contemporary dance, give him an opportunity to do contemporary dance. If a girl is into survival tests (making sh…

I am not opposed to having mixed groups. They have a lot of benefits in many settings. I just don't want to force it. There are people with various views about how various activities should be and how children should be raised. Let them do w/e they think is best.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#194

Post by Balgair »

russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

The BSA is a large and diverse organization. There are many troops out there and each one is a world unto itself. It takes some time to find a good fit for your child, but it is very much worth the efforts.

Many troops and councils have openly bucked National's policies for a while now [0] [1] [2] with varying repercussions. Like any large bureaucratic group of people, change takes time. But I think you can see that change is happening within the BSA. I think that you would be surprised at the inclusiveness of some troops (not all, by any means). Importantly, if you want the scouts to change, doing so from inside the organization is the most expedient way to do so (frustrations are bound to occur though).

Please, give Scouts a try! Interview local scoutmasters and attend some troop meetings. I promise that they will be happy to talk with you. If you are in the Bay Area I know of a few troops that may fit your family well. I think you will find a troop that aligns fairly well with your priorities (nothing is ever 100%). If that fails, please consider starting your own troop! [3].

Scouting is a great opportunity for young people. It's a fantastic 'grit' builder, leadership trainer, and social experience. It teaches uncountable lessons to your children and helps them prepare for later life like no other thing [4]. Many people [5] cite their one-of-a-kind scouting experiences as the nucleus of their future careers and passions. Personally, I cannot wait to see what becomes of the first female Eagle. Whomever that young woman will be, I am certain that she will have a unique place in her community and world.

The lessons of Scouts are uncountable, the friends are innumerable, and the food is, well, usually inedible.

[0] https://www.glaad.org/blog/local-boy-scouts-council-approves...

[1] http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/layer02/store.html

[2] https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/7/27/16049924/boy-scou...

[3] http://www.bsa-grc.org/membership/how-to-start-a-new-unit/54...

[4] https://www.scouting.org/discover/parent/benefits/

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Eagle_Scouts

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#195

Post by sneak »

ams6110 wrote: post #156
endymi0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)? There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

I was in Scouts for a couple of years. Religion was not really a focus at all. The message was that we should respect each others choices with regard to religion and spirituality and that was about it. Morals, good citizenship, and respect were otherwise discussed without much reference to religion.

Chiming in just to offer some counter anecdata to what seems to be on display in this thread: I was edged out of my local scout troop for being an atheist. This was roughly around 1996-1997 though, so perhaps things have improved.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#196

Post by nailer »

laumars wrote: post #192
nailer wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However I’m not in anyway implying that a child’s behaviour is 100% down to nurture. Clearly there is going to be a biological element as well. I think we're basically agreed here: yes, other influences exist, but there's a huge biological element. Even if you remove TV, other family, etc it wouldn't surprise me if there's similar results.

It depends on what your saying it's going to be similar to. The problem we have is this is all subjective from the outset. eg what do you define as feminine and masculine? Is a toy digger masculine and a tea set feminine? What about a toy kitchen? And to what degree would you say that playing with something makes a child more subjectively more feminine or masculine? Playing with a digger 1 hour a week or 30 hours a w…

The best I've seen on innate gender differences is Simon Baron Cohen at Cambridge, using newborns - ie, close to zero socialisation (except in utero). Results showed a skew towards 'systems' for boys and 'people' for girls.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#197

Post by dsajames »

russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

I was in scouting for many years.

Why should they welcome anyone? I was permitted to join, onboarded, etc. Anyone else who joined was given the same treatment. The red carpet wasn't rolled out for anyone.

It's religious only in a vague way. There was a religious requirement to get Eagle, but aside from that, my troop wasn't religious.

My father wasn't religious and he was a scoutmaster.

You sound like someone who has made a judgement based on what some people have chosen to highlight. With the same kind of attitude you might think you are in grave danger of getting killed at any moment in America (if you base your opinion on the US on naysayers).

Certainly if what some higher ups decide about an org matters to you the most, you shouldn't join. Trump was elected president and lots of liberals found enough reason to still love America.

In all seriousness, I learned a lot there. There are other orgs that can accomplish the same. You wouldn't believe how many people I run into today who can't even tie a couple of knots.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#198

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dhimes wrote: post #191
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching kids respect for other's views on the subject of faith

If by respect you mean tolerance, I agree. But I cannot respect, for example, those that believe (as per Leviticus) practicing homosexuals should be put to death.

Not a lot of them in my Troop

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#199

Post by taeric »

leejoramo wrote: post #169
taeric wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing to the church is.... Interesting. Aren't the boy scouts more associated with the church? More to the point, if they really want to embrace change, embrace their name. Don't dilute it to a generic one that also has reputation with another organisation. I say that as someone that believes in redemption. Hiding behind another banner doesn't strike as redemptive behaviour. :( Edit: similarly, deceptive tactics…

Boy Scout Tripp’s are often (usually?) Sponsored by a local religious organization. They do have other types of sponsors such as civic organizations. My troop in the 1980s was sponsored by the local Lions Club. The local troops can have very different attitudes about beliefs in god (or the lack of), sexual orientation, the environment, etc

Right. And I don't mean that to be a damning claim on my part. Large organizations love hiding behind the claims that most local branches are not corrupt/outdated/whatever.

And to a large extent, I agree with that. A problem, is this can essentially be seen as enabling the so called "fat cats" at the top to hide their hypocrisies behind the local orgs. That is, it is an incredibly enabling behavior. And I view it as basically equivalent between the two.

(Of course, there is also the direct comparison that many of the boy scout troops were directly working with and benefiting from the organization called out as "having their heads in the sand.")

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#200

Post by bobwaycott »

ams6110 wrote: post #156
endymi0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)? There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

I was in Scouts for a couple of years. Religion was not really a focus at all. The message was that we should respect each others choices with regard to religion and spirituality and that was about it. Morals, good citizenship, and respect were otherwise discussed without much reference to religion.

One of my sons was in scouts for a few years. Every scout meeting and event was started with a prayer that everyone was expected to bow their heads for and say amen. Talks often referenced strictly religious themes, with frequent mentions of the Judeo-Christian god. It felt like religion was very much a focus of the local troop.
Post reply on HN