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Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

reuters.com

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Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#161

Post by sb8244 »

ryanmercer wrote: post #157
russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

>They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. They don't "welcome" heterosexual scouts, it's a children's organization... sex and sexual orientation have nothing to do with it and should never have anything to do with it given we are talking about MINORS, a good chunk of which are pre-pubescent.

Scouts range ~12 up to 18. Cub scouts are pre-pubescent and also a different organization.

Adults should have nothing to do with sexuality then, but it's definitely there for the scouts. The discussions in my troop were very much "keep that away from here" which is a correct attitude coming from 40+ year olds who aren't family.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#162

Post by ryanmercer »

gaius wrote: post #110
watwut wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on country you live in, girl version may do different activities then boy version. In some places it is more crafting and similar thing. The history of boy vs girl versions are different. Boy version evolved from "boys need activities/guidance and to be better prepared for next war with activities inspired by special unit" and packed with proper boy activities, while girl version started off with proper gir…

Both need to get back to their roots. Scouts locate the enemy and report back. Guides find routes through hostile terrain. Neither has to be a specific sex to complete their mission.

Not sure why you are being downvoted. Some scouting organizations required their scouts to carry firearms, for example The American Boy Scouts (ABS), formed by William Randolph Hearst, carried rifles chambered in .22 and .32 rimfire.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#163

Post by PhasmaFelis »

brobdingnagians wrote: post #128
russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind o…

We're not talking about discriminating against girls, but against atheists and LGBT people.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#164

Post by EvanAnderson »

brobdingnagians wrote: post #155
EvanAnderson wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Boy Scouts of America has a congressional charter. They are not a run-of-the-mill private organization. Their discrimination is unacceptable as a publicly-chartered organization.

One of the problems with our society is that the government has it's hand and it's funding in almost everything. I don't think public institutions should take sides, which means they should get out of interfering with private institutions. If the government didn't take a large percentage of our money to hand out to organizations we disagree with, then maybe we could support the things we do agree with. I wish they di…

Your libertarian-leaning sentiments don't change the facts. The Boy Scouts of America have a congressional charter. They've used that charter to bully other programs into changing their names (evidence "Youthscouts"[1] or "Hacker Scouts"[2]).

If they're going to use the imprimatur of the United States Congress to their advantage then it follows, to me, that they aren't a run-of-the-mill private organization and should be bound by the Constitution in the same way as other public entities. (Their discrimination against atheists, for example, is directly in conflict with the first amendment and, to my mind, unconscionable.)

I'm glad to see the Girl Scouts (also federally chartered) going after them. The Girl Scouts have a much better track record of being a good actor when it comes to discrimination and acting like the public entity that they are.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrenn_v._Boy_Scouts_of_America

[2] - https://web.archive.org/web/20130821172216/http://hacker-sco...

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#165

Post by EvanAnderson »

zamadatix wrote: post #140
EvanAnderson wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Boy Scouts of America has a congressional charter. They are not a run-of-the-mill private organization. Their discrimination is unacceptable as a publicly-chartered organization.

Does that mean anything or is it just honorific like most recognition of groups from the government? I think it's quite well established the Boy Scouts of America are a well recognized group regardless of this so I don't see how this is what makes them non run-of-the-mill.

The Boy Scouts have used the trademark rights granted by their federal charter to bully other organizations to change their names. In a trademark dispute it would be necessary for a claimant to demonstrate that there is a likelihood of confusion between their mark and the allegedly infringing mark. The BSA has claimed that their federal charter allows them to be exempt from that requirement and, in the 2008 Wrenn vs. BSA decision the court affirmed that claim, stating "The Court agrees with the BSA that it need not demonstrate the likelihood of confusion because it has been granted special protection by Congressional charter."

That is sufficient demonstration, to me, that they derive value from their federal charter above and beyond it simply being an honorific.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#166

Post by EvanAnderson »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #152
fesoliveira wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so simple as that. Atheists don't demand people to give up faith, but we try raise critical thinking in people so that their actions are guided by fact and evidence instead of blind adoration and faith. Teaching kids to blindly follow things instead of teaching them to think critically can be very harmful in the long run.

Teaching kids respect is a positive thing. Teaching kids not to steal or lie, likewise.

Agreed. And one can have those things without religion.

Teaching kids to blindly accept matters that are unfalsifiable, doesn't seem like a positive thing. Acting as an example to kids by being discriminatory toward those who do not blindly accept the unfalsifiable doesn't seem like a positive thing either.

Edit: minor phrasing

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#167

Post by nailer »

laumars wrote: post #138
nailer wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go find a lesbian mother's group. You won't find a group of kids more exposed to a year-0 style environment, where a large bunch of children are encouraged to specifically play with toys that are usually more popular with the other gender. You also won't find a more exasperated set of parents who are blown away when most of their children seek out more common toys for their gender.

You're only factoring in parental influences. Kids react a lot more to what other kids in their group (eg friends at school) play with than what their parents tell them to. However I do take your point and I'm not suggesting there isn't a biological element at play as well. Just that the gender element is vastly overstated and in fact a great many girls do enjoy "boys stuff" and visa versa.

I'm factoring in parental and cohort influence: these kids play with each other, and are not in school yet.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#168

Post by EvanAnderson »

ams6110 wrote: post #156
endymi0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)? There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

I was in Scouts for a couple of years. Religion was not really a focus at all. The message was that we should respect each others choices with regard to religion and spirituality and that was about it. Morals, good citizenship, and respect were otherwise discussed without much reference to religion.

I was in Scouts, too, and I had a similar experience to you. That doesn't change the fact that organization has weighed-in on matters of religion[1] and affirmed themselves as being discriminatory toward atheists.

[1] - https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/31/bsa-reaffirms-d...

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#169

Post by leejoramo »

taeric wrote: post #75
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also came here with a similar sentiment that I was expecting would be echoed by someone else in this thread. As an Eagle Scout who participated in a co-ed Venture Crew, I think it’s a good step forward for the BSA organization. People in the thread have mentioned some possible issues with co-Ed integration, and while it has its issues, I firmly believe on the whole that it’s a net good for the organization. I won’t…

Comparing to the church is.... Interesting. Aren't the boy scouts more associated with the church? More to the point, if they really want to embrace change, embrace their name. Don't dilute it to a generic one that also has reputation with another organisation. I say that as someone that believes in redemption. Hiding behind another banner doesn't strike as redemptive behaviour. :( Edit: similarly, deceptive tactics…

Boy Scout Tripp’s are often (usually?) Sponsored by a local religious organization. They do have other types of sponsors such as civic organizations. My troop in the 1980s was sponsored by the local Lions Club.

The local troops can have very different attitudes about beliefs in god (or the lack of), sexual orientation, the environment, etc

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#170

Post by lb1lf »

elygre wrote: post #126
lb1lf wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but still a male Norwegian scout's international affiliation is with the WOSM (World Organization of the Scout Movement), whereas a female scout is with the WAGGGS (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts); there are two distinct world organizations. (Oh, and to complicate matters further, the YMCA/YWCA scouts and guides are not members of the national scout association; they have their own organizatio…

Norges Speiderforbud is affiliated with both WOSM and WAGGGS ( https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norges_speiderforbund )

That it is, but as the international associations are gender-specific, a male NSF member is affiliated with WOSM, a female with WAGGGS.

Not knowing the first thing about international scout politics, I would think the time was ripe for merging WOSM and WAGGGS into one.

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