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Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

reuters.com

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Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#151

Post by fesoliveira »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #144
russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

As is every club with any kind of charter. The DAR; the sports teams at my local high school; heck even girl's schools like Wellsley. And the religious component is contained in "adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom" Its about teaching young people to respect spirituality, to accept loyalty in Scouts to their own faith. I can't…

It's not so simple as that. Atheists don't demand people to give up faith, but we try raise critical thinking in people so that their actions are guided by fact and evidence instead of blind adoration and faith. Teaching kids to blindly follow things instead of teaching them to think critically can be very harmful in the long run.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#152

Post by JoeAltmaier »

fesoliveira wrote: post #151
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is every club with any kind of charter. The DAR; the sports teams at my local high school; heck even girl's schools like Wellsley. And the religious component is contained in "adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom" Its about teaching young people to respect spirituality, to accept loyalty in Scouts to their own faith. I can't…

It's not so simple as that. Atheists don't demand people to give up faith, but we try raise critical thinking in people so that their actions are guided by fact and evidence instead of blind adoration and faith. Teaching kids to blindly follow things instead of teaching them to think critically can be very harmful in the long run.

Teaching kids respect is a positive thing. Teaching kids not to steal or lie, likewise.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#153

Post by JoeAltmaier »

endymi0n wrote: post #149
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is every club with any kind of charter. The DAR; the sports teams at my local high school; heck even girl's schools like Wellsley. And the religious component is contained in "adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom" Its about teaching young people to respect spirituality, to accept loyalty in Scouts to their own faith. I can't…

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)? There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

Most young people do grow up in some spiritual environment, at least in America. And all Scouts are required to respect others' faith.

I call straw man - what specific problem is being referred to? An imaginary youth raised in a cave?

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#154

Post by brobdingnagians »

richmarr wrote: post #131
brobdingnagians wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind o…

> I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see By all means try to distinguish between them. You haven't yet done so.

"freedom to act as you see fit" is usually a human right guaranteed legally by the Constitution, but discrimination is a cultural idea which is slowly gaining the power of legal force to prevent people from doing what they would normally choose. To be "discriminating" used to be a compliment, it meant you could intellectualy discern the logical differences between two things, much like how we use "observative". But now it means something more like "making choices someone personally disagrees with or thinks is unfair to a certain preferred group". They are indeed, diametrically opposed in that sense. If it is only a cultural or social opposition to someone's choices, then sure it could be a good thing, but it is becoming more and more a legal construct to oppose a person's freedom to act as they see fit if you think they are being unfair.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#155

Post by brobdingnagians »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #129
brobdingnagians wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind o…

The Boy Scouts of America has a congressional charter. They are not a run-of-the-mill private organization. Their discrimination is unacceptable as a publicly-chartered organization.

One of the problems with our society is that the government has it's hand and it's funding in almost everything. I don't think public institutions should take sides, which means they should get out of interfering with private institutions. If the government didn't take a large percentage of our money to hand out to organizations we disagree with, then maybe we could support the things we do agree with. I wish they didn't have a congressional charter, maybe then they'd be more independent.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#156

Post by ams6110 »

endymi0n wrote: post #149
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is every club with any kind of charter. The DAR; the sports teams at my local high school; heck even girl's schools like Wellsley. And the religious component is contained in "adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom" Its about teaching young people to respect spirituality, to accept loyalty in Scouts to their own faith. I can't…

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)? There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

I was in Scouts for a couple of years. Religion was not really a focus at all. The message was that we should respect each others choices with regard to religion and spirituality and that was about it. Morals, good citizenship, and respect were otherwise discussed without much reference to religion.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#157

Post by ryanmercer »

russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

>They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them.

They don't "welcome" heterosexual scouts, it's a children's organization... sex and sexual orientation have nothing to do with it and should never have anything to do with it given we are talking about MINORS, a good chunk of which are pre-pubescent.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#158

Post by ryanmercer »

ams6110 wrote: post #156
endymi0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)? There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

I was in Scouts for a couple of years. Religion was not really a focus at all. The message was that we should respect each others choices with regard to religion and spirituality and that was about it. Morals, good citizenship, and respect were otherwise discussed without much reference to religion.

>I was in Scouts for a couple of years. Religion was not really a focus at all.

Same. Aside from having a Jehova's Witness as a scoutmaster (that never once brought up religion, in fact my family and that family were the only non-holiday church-going families in my dens and packs), there was absolutely nothing religious about my time from tiger cubs up to my father dying just shy of my 13th birthday and me leaving scouts.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#159

Post by ryanmercer »

crazygringo wrote: post #62

It's strange to me that Girl Scouts were able to have that name in the first place, once Boy Scouts already existed -- there's so much trademark confusion, for a long time I'd always assumed they were two branches of the same org, and trademarks aren't supposed to allow for this kind of confusion. I totally understand why Girl Scouts doesn't want to allow Boy Scouts to drop "Boy" because it feels unfair (neither shou…

>there's so much trademark confusion, for a long time I'd always assumed they were two branches of the same org, and trademarks aren't supposed to allow for this kind of confusion.

Confusion goes way, way back in the U.S. as far as scouting as there have been multiple organizations doing similar things, just between 1896 and the 1940's you had:

- Woodcraft Indians

- Sons of Daniel Boone

- Boy Scouts of the United States

- Peace Scouts of California, New England Boy Scouts, Rhode Island Boy Scouts, Michigan Forest Scouts

- Life Saving Scouts of the World

- American Boy Scouts

- YMMIA Scouts

- Colonel Cody’s Boy Scouts

- Lone Scouts of America

- Columbian Squires

- Boy's Works

- DeMolay International

And probably many other smaller ones.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#160

Post by ams6110 »

taneq wrote: post #127
laumars wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are we all becoming so politically correct that we effectively stop teaching our children the values of masculinity and femininity? In my experience masculinity and femininity are a concept we largely teach kids. I've seen so many boys who love musicals, dolls, dressing up, crafting and all the other activities often associated as "girls things". Yet the moment they're spotted doing it by a group of their peers, th…

I've seen this same thing in action, and I've wondered whether it might be part of the reason that people end up identifying as transgender. If you've had it drummed into you that dolls and dresses and make-up are "girl things" and you like all of those, then well you must be a girl, right? And if you like tools and cars and sports then you must be a boy? If you can't even imagine it's an option to like those things…

I don't really think that gender confusion has that simple a cause.
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