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Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

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Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#121

Post by Dirlewanger »

OskarS wrote: post #96
BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

I'm Swedish and grew up as a scout, and in Sweden scouting was made co-educational in the 1960s. I remember having my mind blown at finding out that this wasn't the case everywhere in the modern world. It just seemed like the most ridiculous thing to me, to separate scouting by gender. Saying that girls and boys couldn't be scouts together was equally absurd to me as saying that girls and boys couldn't go to school t…

You're automatically assuming because it's exclusionary that it's a negative for society. There's already been an equivalent for over a century.

Just because it's been around before their lifetime and is a cultural institution doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Too many liberals get this wrong about conservatism; they think "old == bad", ergo it must be toppled/changed in some way. What is morally/ethically wrong with only young boys going away for a few weeks in the summer to a camp?

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#122

Post by bluecalm »

OskarS wrote: post #120
ramblerman wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Equality in this was just the most natural thing in the world. Op wasn't suggesting girls can't be scouts. You can still have unisex scouts. He was merely asking if we have gone so far that a club which allows boys to play with boys and girls just with girls (in one activity) was such a terrible thing. The fact that you dropped the equality hammer to counter him, kind of makes his point that it has.

I think there are a number of circumstances where separating by gender is perfectly fine. Sports is an obvious one: because of gender differences in physiques, girls and boys compete at different levels, so the separation makes perfect sense. I'm just saying that it makes absolutely zero sense to do it for scouting. Scouting is about teaching kids to be self-reliant, to be confident in nature, to work well with other…

>>I'm just saying that it makes absolutely zero sense to do it for scouting

Boys are stronger than girls so having boys only or girls only makes it easier to organize physical exercises/tests/requirements. It's also likely boys are in general interested in other things than girls so having gender separation allows more kids doing what they enjoy. One more reason could be that having genders separated removes the aspect of kids hitting puberty interacting with each other and additional burden it entails when organizing activities.

I mean, there are surely reasons to have genders combined but it's very easy to imagine reasons to have it separated.

>>It makes just about as much sense as having different scouting organizations for people with blue eyes and brown eyes.

Oh c'mon, we can discuss how much different girls and boys are and what kind of structure is better for society but to claim relevant differences between boys and girls amount to differences between blue eyed and brown eyed people is just ignorant.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#123

Post by danso »

BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

Do boys and girls sports teams teach the "values of masculinity and femininity"? Boys and girls may compete at different physical levels but I wasn't under the impression that girls trained and competed with a specific feminine mindset (especially as many of the girls teams coaches were men).

I don't think there has to be a ban on gendered clubs, but historically, girls and women have seemed to get shortchanged in the activities society deemed appropriate for them, so I can understand that some want to err on the side of challenging and bucking traditional gender boundaries and norms.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#124

Post by swish_bob »

gmk2 wrote: post #108
swish_bob wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rot. My boys both clearly gain from having girls in the Scouts and Explorers. In fact, the issues that my youngest's Scout pack are currently suffering from are pretty much all linked to the sort of crappy behaviour you get when boys are brought up the way you appear to be suggesting is a positive thing.

OP said "long term". Probably meaning "Do they still gain after their first divorce and losing half of their assets?".

I'm confident that exposure to girls during Scouts is decreasing their likelihood of getting divorced, rather than increasing it.

Or do you honestly believe that toxic masculine behaviour is correlated to staying married? I mean, I suppose that it's possible: certainly escaping an abusive relationship is documented to be harder than leaving one that's healthy, just not working, so you could be right ...

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#125

Post by brobdingnagians »

OskarS wrote: post #120
ramblerman wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Equality in this was just the most natural thing in the world. Op wasn't suggesting girls can't be scouts. You can still have unisex scouts. He was merely asking if we have gone so far that a club which allows boys to play with boys and girls just with girls (in one activity) was such a terrible thing. The fact that you dropped the equality hammer to counter him, kind of makes his point that it has.

I think there are a number of circumstances where separating by gender is perfectly fine. Sports is an obvious one: because of gender differences in physiques, girls and boys compete at different levels, so the separation makes perfect sense. I'm just saying that it makes absolutely zero sense to do it for scouting. Scouting is about teaching kids to be self-reliant, to be confident in nature, to work well with other…

I think part of the issue is that, as a private organization, it should be able to decide for itself in order to obtain it's own goals and ends (which they have, though I disagree with them and will look elsewhere for the good old experience). I see great value in separating genders for scouts and having a comraderie form among young men. Young men act very differently when they are around young women, and it is good to have both situations in structured environments. I feel it is easier to teach camping, self reliance, etc. when they aren't distracted by the cute girl. You might feel differently, and that's okay, but I think it's okay for both us to have our own opinions and our own organizations so that we can do as we see fit without attacking each other's position. I'm an Eagle Scout, and I'm very grateful for the experiences I had, I found it valuable. I had lots of other times and places to have other sorts of experiences, but scouts was special in it's own way.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#126

Post by elygre »

lb1lf wrote: post #84
elygre wrote: post #81

In Norway, they solved the problem by actually merging the two organizations. In 1978.

True, but still a male Norwegian scout's international affiliation is with the WOSM (World Organization of the Scout Movement), whereas a female scout is with the WAGGGS (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts); there are two distinct world organizations. (Oh, and to complicate matters further, the YMCA/YWCA scouts and guides are not members of the national scout association; they have their own organizatio…

Norges Speiderforbud is affiliated with both WOSM and WAGGGS (https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norges_speiderforbund)

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#127

Post by taneq »

laumars wrote: post #93
BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

> Are we all becoming so politically correct that we effectively stop teaching our children the values of masculinity and femininity? In my experience masculinity and femininity are a concept we largely teach kids. I've seen so many boys who love musicals, dolls, dressing up, crafting and all the other activities often associated as "girls things". Yet the moment they're spotted doing it by a group of their peers, th…

I've seen this same thing in action, and I've wondered whether it might be part of the reason that people end up identifying as transgender. If you've had it drummed into you that dolls and dresses and make-up are "girl things" and you like all of those, then well you must be a girl, right? And if you like tools and cars and sports then you must be a boy? If you can't even imagine it's an option to like those things if you're not the associated gender, I can see that messing with your sense of identity.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#128

Post by brobdingnagians »

russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind of diversity enriches society for everyone. Look at it more as diversity. Atheists can make their own camps which promote their own ideas and ethics, and it will be a haven for good memories among them. It isn't good to homogenize all of society and attack those who just want their own little "safe haven" and "summer camps" for their children and their cultural ideas without bothering anyone else. I fully support your right to put your son wherever you want, just please support my right to do the same.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#129

Post by EvanAnderson »

brobdingnagians wrote: post #128
russellbeattie wrote: post #112

Boy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...

I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind o…

The Boy Scouts of America has a congressional charter. They are not a run-of-the-mill private organization. Their discrimination is unacceptable as a publicly-chartered organization.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#130

Post by humanrebar »

4ndr3vv wrote: post #98
BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #88

Will we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process t…

"...we effectively stop teaching our children the values of masculinity and femininity" What "Values" are these? That Boys are tough and shouldn't cry and girls are good at sitting quietly doing crafts?

The same things we celebrate when there is gender diversity in a given context.
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