“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming • Hacker News Board

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#51

Post by lb1lf » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

shittyadmin wrote: post #33

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On an optically isolated (phyiscally receive only) server which only receives codes sent from the application servers and produces results. And how does it count votes per candidate then? > Yes. More secure than Diebold machines to be certain. That seems very questionable.

> And how does it count votes per candidate then? Codes can be simply be computed as HMAC(secret key, SIN + candidate) or something similar, the user and any attacker without the secret key just has a random string of bits. You do realize votes are tallied by computer currently, right? Most of these just rely on phone-based systems that often expose interfaces to news orgs and such. The sort of interface I'm talking…

...how does the user know his vote is valid and added to the tally?

Changing a vote to be for another candidate is not the only way to influence an election; you could have votes for the 'wrong' candidate be thrown out as invalid, too.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#52

Post by cypherpunks01 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #36

athenot wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving voting day from a Tuesday to a Sunday would also make a big difference. There are many people who have have informed opinions but can't afford to take off work (write-up for being late to work/take off early, lost income, transport issues). Also that would avoid removing a school day since most public schools are used for polling. Another option would be to switch to make mail-in ballots only.

My $.10 proposal: change Veterans Day to be the 2nd Tuesday in November. Almost no cost, there's a strong “they served so you would have this right” angle, and it'd pair naturally with other civic events.

That's a pretty good idea! Would have the positive effect on voter turnout without negative economic effect of an extra holiday.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#53

Post by sailfast » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

> Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society.

EDIT: "Wow" Retracted and language changes - agree that ignorance is something to be fought, but it's a tough determination when it comes to voting.

How are you determining a voter is ignorant? What if someone is informed but disagrees with you?

Like so many things, we need both, and I don't think it is an either/or.

It should be easier to vote (Maryland just passed same-day registration 67% to 33%.), and people need time to vote which can be hard to come by if you work multiple jobs.

We also need transparency on the issues and good explainers. Civic groups have been doing a good job on the latter, and this works well on the local level depending on your jurisdiction.

Transparency may help you understand incumbents, but will not help with new candidates, or with ballot questions. That also won't scale to local politics. Donate to civic groups that are trying to make it easier to understand what is on the ballot. Push for better explanations on the ballot itself. Fund local newspapers and buy a subscription.

Also, in general, if you think higher participation is better you kinda have to rely on the voter - even the "ignorant, poorly-informed" ones.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#54

Post by JustSomeNobody » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

99052882514569 wrote: post #15

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

>And I think that people realize this. So when they know they haven't invested enough in fully understanding the issues and the candidates, they spare us the chance of their error by not voting. Sadly these people are often less ignorant that the ones who haven't invested enough in fully understanding the issues and the candidates, and yet still vote. But I agree with the larger point completely, and have been called…

Case in point. All but one Florida Amendments passed. I mean seriously!? A lot of those don't belong in the state constitution!

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#55

Post by jfk13 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #34

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

I agree this is far from the primary thing Americans should be focusing on, even forgetting about all the horrific and completely impossible to fix security issues that this will bring. What the US needs to be focusing on is changing the voting system. It's absolutely insane and undemocratic for this to keep happening almost every election: https://preview.redd.it/lyvqks420vw11.jpg?width=949&auto=web... If this isn't…

> It's absolutely insane and undemocratic for this to keep happening almost every election:

> https://preview.redd.it/lyvqks420vw11.jpg?width=949&auto=web....

> If this isn't a broken system, I don't know what is. This is not the "voice of the people" being heard.

If that graphic were for the House rather than the Senate, it would be more persuasive. The Senate is (by design) not about representation directly in proportion to population.

It may be debatable whether the Senate model of equal representation for each state is appropriate, but that's a different issue than changing the FPTP voting system.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#56

Post by danso » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

It doesn't have to be one or the other. People who put forth the effort to participate in government -- whether it's voting, or going to a public meeting, or visiting their representative -- are sacrificing their time, and getting something out of it even if they initially do it for shallow reasons. They're at least getting firsthand experience of government's warts and all. And that firsthand experience is going to be more directly motivating than the passive enjoyment of transparency and other reforms that civic enthusiasts may bring.

I'm not belittling the benefits transparency or better information dissemination -- it's just that the average person can't fully appreciate such features. Even on HN, despite the abundance of online info and search tools, people are staggeringly ignorant of ordinary functions of our government -- including the use of public records to do the most basic research. But it's not because people are dumb, it's just they haven't yet had the motivation or need to engage with government and elected officials. OTOH, anyone who's had reason to be irate enough to speak at a city council meeting or read an entire environmental impact review quickly becomes knowledgeable about civic functions.

So I just don't agree with putting forth the idea that you should only vote when you've put in real effort. Voting was intended to be broadly accessible with minimal investment demanded and few requirements imposed upon a citizen's motive or knowledge. No amount of education, passion, or moral inclination changes the fact that your vote has the same worth as even the lowest-information voter.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#57

Post by School-Cotton » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

shittyadmin wrote: post #33

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On an optically isolated (phyiscally receive only) server which only receives codes sent from the application servers and produces results. And how does it count votes per candidate then? > Yes. More secure than Diebold machines to be certain. That seems very questionable.

> And how does it count votes per candidate then? Codes can be simply be computed as HMAC(secret key, SIN + candidate) or something similar, the user and any attacker without the secret key just has a random string of bits. You do realize votes are tallied by computer currently, right? Most of these just rely on phone-based systems that often expose interfaces to news orgs and such. The sort of interface I'm talking…

> You do realize votes are tallied by computer currently, right?

Not in countries that take elections seriously, for example almost anywhere in Europe.

Sadly it’s true of the US, but it doesn’t have to be that way.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#58

Post by king07828 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #11

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

A big part of the problem I feel is choice fatigue. Its by design that when you go to vote in a US election you are often voting for sometimes 20 or more different positions, and because of the sheer quantity of people you are supposed to audit this way it becomes impossible to thoroughly investigate all your choices if each one takes an hour of research. You can't ask your average citizen to spend 20+ hours in advan…

Alternatively, make each elected office require a man and a woman to be independently elected to that office. Have the decision making power split equally between the two 50-50 so that both must agree before taking action (e.g., signing or vetoing bills, or casting votes for bills). Each political party would provide both a male candidate and a female candidate for each office.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#59

Post by starbeast » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #13

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #2

> The Boston-based company raised $2.2 million earlier this year, helped along by buzzwords such as “biometrics” and “blockchain,” which it claims allows it to secure the voting process. Its app reportedly requires voters to take and upload a picture of their government-issued I.D., along with a selfie-style video of their face, which facial-recognition technology then uses to ensure the person pictured in the I.D. a…

> and “blockchain,” which it claims allows it to secure the voting process... (I'm rubbing my temples right now) I don't even have the words for how bad this would be for a democracy or republic. I will, however, make a curt but general comment on blockchain: Anytime you see that buzzword, be on your guard.

Don't worry, I'm gonna solve the trust problem in blockchain technology by creating a blockchain that lets you know which of the blockchains are trustworthy. It will be fully secured by blockchain technology, so you know you can trust it.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#60

Post by lolc » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

shittyadmin wrote: post #7

Good idea honestly, the security issues are greatly overblown - especially if we can simply make this a mailer with "if you want to vote for this candidate, enter this code/scan this qr code", where nothing about that code identifies the candidate they voted for. And it'd definitely help to improve voter turnout, just look at studies on how poll lines impact future voting behavior...

> simply

That one word you can never use to describe electronic voting with secret ballot. Sure it may be made easy, but it won't ever be simple.