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Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

bbc.com

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Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#91

Post by ralfd »

justinator wrote: post #58
justinator wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transportation makes up 25% of the carbon emissions worldwide. Cows make up like 8%. The US military is the world's largest polluter. Most of their most serious crime against the environment is detonation of nuclear warheads.

Here are citations to my numbers (since I seem to be downvoted): * Transportation: 28% https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-... * Livestock is 14.5% of all GHG emissions, cows are 65% of that: http://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode/ * Stories on how the US Military is the world' biggest polluters: https://www.newsweek.com/2014/07/25/us-department-defence-on... https://www.foreignpol…

Slight correction:

https://theconversation.com/yes-eating-meat-affects-the-envi...

> All of agriculture accounted for a total of 9 percent. All of animal agriculture contributes less than half of this amount, representing 3.9 percent of total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions.

> To its credit, the FAO immediately owned up to its error. Unfortunately, the agency’s initial claim that livestock was responsible for the lion’s share of world greenhouse gas emissions had already received wide coverage.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#92

Post by ralfd »

thg wrote: post #90
thaumasiotes wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that German titles stacked up rather than overriding one another, like "Herr Professor Doktor". Is that wrong?

Generally that's correct, albeit pretty much only used in writing. There are, however, political titles for which, to my knowledge, that does not apply. Minister, Chancellor and President (of the BRD) should all supersede a PhD title.

Bundeskanzlerin Dr. Angela Merkel is the official formal title.

See the header here: https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/service/bulletin/rede...

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#93

Post by tolien »

mindslight wrote: post #67
tolien wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

R-134A has a global warming potential of 1550 over 100 years [1], i.e. about 45 times more effective than methane, so while it's not eating the ozone layer you probably shouldn't be spraying it around by the tonne either. Edit: and CO2 has a GWP of 1 (as the reference point for GWP), so R-134A is way more effective than that. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Value...

Judging by the duster cans I have here [0] it looks like they've switched to HFC-152a which has GWP but does not deplete the ozone layer. But the point is that they're the same exact substances, given different designators depending on the use. HFC-134a is perfectly legal to vent into the atmosphere, yet if it's in a refrigeration system (and thus called R-134a) it is not. R-290 is just the refrigeration name for pla…

> HFC-134a is perfectly legal to vent into the atmosphere

The argument, I guess, is “it shouldn’t be”, but it’s better than R-12 (for the ozone layer anyway; R-12 has a GWP of 2400) so turning a blind eye to relatively small-scale use is better for the ozone layer.

Propane’s GWP is 3.3, so it’s a bit worse than CO_2 but much better than -134a or methane. A fine does seem odd for venting it although as long as it’s cheap there’s probably not much other incentive to try to conserve it. Taxes which made the gas valuable enough to be worth capturing (charge for the externality and all that) seem more sensible but are politically unlikely and I’d be wary of unintended consequences like accidentally incentivising ozone-depleting gases instead.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#94

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

obpacheco wrote: post #61
barry-cotter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a good alternative. France produces ~80% of its electricity with nuclear power.

I don't know if I would call that a good alternative. How many places on the Earth can you no longer go due to radiation? Chernobyl, Fukushima, Three Mile Island and the list will go on. Also it seams very short sided in terms of planning for out of control cosmic events such as asteroids or coronal mass ejections which could wipe out our grid, leading to nuclear leaks worldwide. If we were to get something like the…

TMI has already been addressed in sibling comments but I just wanted to point out that both Fukushima and Chernobyl were outdated reactor designs with active cooling. A modern reactor has much safer failure mode - but the hysteria about nuclear means that they don't get built and we keep these dangerous old designs running instead.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#95

Post by consp »

xavierstein wrote: post #24

My father-in-law firmly believes that the hole in the ozone was caused by space shuttle reentry, and that's why it's patching now, and also that CFCs couldn't possibly make the hole because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

> ... because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

Going up the crazy scale: Has he burst into flames? If no, then air mixes heavier and lighter components. If yes, then the 21% O2 is actually at the bottom and should be 100% as it is heavier than N2.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#96

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

kijin wrote: post #59
Retra wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water is heavier than air, but that doesn't stop the rain, does it?

That's not a good counterexample because rain comes down. Water vapor, which goes up, is actually lighter than air by a large margin (0.804g/L versus 1.225g/L) at the same temperature and pressure.

Water vapour is water.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#97

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

xavierstein wrote: post #30
pm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does he have data to back up those claims?

I guess I'm more looking for a response to "yes CFCs can destroy ozone even though they are heavier than air," and "here is a graph of the size of the ozone vs space shuttle reentries" that shows a non-correlation.

The hole was pretty much the size of Antarctica at its peak, how could something the size of a small aircraft flying through the atmosphere 135 times cause such a huge hole!?

Also if you lie down on the ground do you suffocate to death because of all of that heavy ozone hanging around there? No, because it's dispersed throughout the atmosphere.

Ultimately it sounds like the kind of situation where no amount of logic is going to change his mind and that you're probably better off avoiding the subject entirely for the sake of your own sanity.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#98

Post by ThomPete »

awestroke wrote: post #89
ThomPete wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big difference is that you could prove the ozone layers thining and so it was easy to get political backup, plus the solution was fairly simple. The climate debate is mostly political and there is no way to prove the effects only speculate. If just people would let scientists do science and not mix in political agendas we would have been much better of and money could have been spent for things we can actually do…

No way to prove the effects? That's a controversial statement, considering the 99%+ scientific consensus that we are headed towards a global catastrophe.

1) There isnt a 97% consensus on what you think 2) Science does not work by consensus but falisifaction 3) climate debate is not scientific but political in its core.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#99

Post by robbick »

mrfusion wrote: post #62
justinator wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are citations to my numbers (since I seem to be downvoted): * Transportation: 28% https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-... * Livestock is 14.5% of all GHG emissions, cows are 65% of that: http://www.fao.org/news/story/en/item/197623/icode/ * Stories on how the US Military is the world' biggest polluters: https://www.newsweek.com/2014/07/25/us-department-defence-on... https://www.foreignpol…

Cows just confuse the issue though since they’re mostly producing methane which although a ghg doesn’t stick around too long.

I hadn't heard that methane didn't last too long in the atmosphere before. What happens to it?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#100

Post by cyphar »

EGreg wrote: post #64
mrfusion wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cows just confuse the issue though since they’re mostly producing methane which although a ghg doesn’t stick around too long.

Methane is far more potent as a greenhouse gas And the best case scenario is burning it somehow in which case it just has a CO2 byproduct

Weirdly, burning methane gives you both energy and decreases its carbon footprint by ~30x (the mole ratio is 1:1).
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