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Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

bbc.com

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Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#11

Post by tolien »

mohaine wrote: post #7

Ok, now that refrigerates are ozone safe can we get all the regulations removed from them? At least for the safe ones? Right now if you don't reclaim the R-134A from your car AC or fridge it is a $27k fine while you can buy cans of it to blow out your keyboard. Same goes for propane. This makes the new fridges that use propane almost impossible to work on since nobody has the reclamation equipment for R290.

R-134A has a global warming potential of 1550 over 100 years [1], i.e. about 45 times more effective than methane, so while it's not eating the ozone layer you probably shouldn't be spraying it around by the tonne either.

Edit: and CO2 has a GWP of 1 (as the reference point for GWP), so R-134A is way more effective than that.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Value...

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#12

Post by InclinedPlane »

dqpb wrote: post #4

I'm not an expert, but repairing/healing seems like a misleading analogy for what's happening

Ozone is produced naturally, the ozone layer will return itself to pre-industrial ozone concentrations simply by leaving it alone. You can call it regeneration or repair or healing or whatever you like.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#13

Post by black6 »

ams6110 wrote: post #10
mohaine wrote: post #7

Ok, now that refrigerates are ozone safe can we get all the regulations removed from them? At least for the safe ones? Right now if you don't reclaim the R-134A from your car AC or fridge it is a $27k fine while you can buy cans of it to blow out your keyboard. Same goes for propane. This makes the new fridges that use propane almost impossible to work on since nobody has the reclamation equipment for R290.

Anecdotally, the techs that I've seen servicing AC are pretty casual about venting excess pressure or purging lines into the air.

When I was a brewer, we retrofitted our chiller from R22 to R410A (had to change compressor oil to POE, but was otherwise a seamless transition). The techs from the shop we contracted to do the changeover let all that R22 bleed off into the atmosphere because they forgot their reclamation cylinder.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#14

Post by throwaway5752 »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #9
delibes wrote: post #3

But the BBC reported earlier this year that somebody is cheating and making CFC-11 - banned by the Montreal Protocol. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44138984

How are these incompatible stories? Worldwide ozone destroying chemical production is way down, which is allowing the ozone layer to regenerate back to pre-industrial levels. Meanwhile, some polluters are cranking out banned CFCs and freeriding on the worldwide reduction efforts. Much like CO2 production, some level of emissions are well within the ability of the biosphere to deal with without harm. But if everyone e…

How much CFC production was accounted for in the models that predicted the O3 layer healing? How much production can be handled and what is current production? Those are the answers one would have to have before writing this off.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#16

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #14
InclinedPlane wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are these incompatible stories? Worldwide ozone destroying chemical production is way down, which is allowing the ozone layer to regenerate back to pre-industrial levels. Meanwhile, some polluters are cranking out banned CFCs and freeriding on the worldwide reduction efforts. Much like CO2 production, some level of emissions are well within the ability of the biosphere to deal with without harm. But if everyone e…

How much CFC production was accounted for in the models that predicted the O3 layer healing? How much production can be handled and what is current production? Those are the answers one would have to have before writing this off.

> How much CFC production was accounted for in the models that predicted the O3 layer healing?

I thought ozone layer density (is that the right term?) was directly measurable?

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-scienc...

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#17

Post by pseudolus »

A2017U1 wrote: post #15

If only we could get such swift global action on greenhouse emissions. Both problems are essentially the same yet the difference in action couldn't be wider.

One of the significant differences is that in the 1980s when the issue of ozone depletion was being confronted, politics was not as polarized. One of the great successes of those arguing for action was recruiting Conservative British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, a trained chemist, as an advocate

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/energy/2016/10/will-ma...

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#18

Post by kaybe »

delibes wrote: post #3

But the BBC reported earlier this year that somebody is cheating and making CFC-11 - banned by the Montreal Protocol. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44138984

It's home insulation production in China. The culprits are fully aware it's illegal, but China has some problems in getting compliance to its own laws.

https://content.eia-global.org/posts/documents/000/000/761/o...

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#19

Post by EGreg »

pseudolus wrote: post #17
A2017U1 wrote: post #15

If only we could get such swift global action on greenhouse emissions. Both problems are essentially the same yet the difference in action couldn't be wider.

One of the significant differences is that in the 1980s when the issue of ozone depletion was being confronted, politics was not as polarized. One of the great successes of those arguing for action was recruiting Conservative British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, a trained chemist, as an advocate https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/energy/2016/10/will-ma...

There is another major difference:

Fossil fuels contribute a lot of energy to the needs of people and organizations. Solar and wind will take time to take over the infrastructure. CFCs on the other hand could be much more easily replaced.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#20

Post by kaybe »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #16
throwaway5752 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much CFC production was accounted for in the models that predicted the O3 layer healing? How much production can be handled and what is current production? Those are the answers one would have to have before writing this off.

> How much CFC production was accounted for in the models that predicted the O3 layer healing? I thought ozone layer density (is that the right term?) was directly measurable? https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-scienc...

Yes, and it is not even that hard. But we cannot measure the future, thus we use models to predict, and those need inputs (such as emitted CFCs) which can be wrong.
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