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How hustle culture took over advertising

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Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#251

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>> "Comically underpaid" Underpaid compared to what? To what they might earn elsewhere? To the cost of buying a house or flat?

Compared to the amount required to not want to spend most of their time grinding to acquire a decent life.

We're missing any kind of definition for "a decent life" (or indeed "grinding" for that matter).

I live in an region where the population density is at least 50 times less than that of greater London. We have few Michelin-starred restaurants, a distinct lack of opera houses, and no top-ranked universities. I'm not bothered in the slightest.

Living in London (or NYC, or the Bay Area) is, just like so many other things in life, a choice.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#252
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society is crumbling...? I'm pretty sure the data doesn't back that up. We face many problems, to be sure, but this is nothing new.

If you are a young person in America, it is. Unless you were born into the top 10th percentile of wealthy households, you are pretty much guaranteed to grow up to be poorer than your parents, and you know it. This is something new for America, and the sense of desperation it creates is the young is, for once, entirely legitimate.

This is key. It's not that you're going to be third-world-country poor, it's that regardless of what you do, you won't experience the same economic benefits for the effort that you put in, compared to 30 years ago.

This is true for people all across the board: blue-collar workers, office workers, and doctors.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also need autonomy to choose your own meaning. > Example : a doctor that is forced to use an expert-system to guide him, would feel a lot less autonomy,even though he may understand that he's more useful to his patients - i.e. ,a lot of meaning. Then why would they be "forced"? Either it makes their work easier/better or it doesn't, where does the force come in?

Insurance rates for one or if it is sufficient enough not doing so being malpractice.

Let's take throwing rocks from a highway bridge. I would never want to do such a thing, so knowing that I would get punished for it doesn't curtail my autonomy. I don't feel "forced" by those laws to not do it, since my own volition comes first. I think about the example of the doctor the same way.

Autonomy doesn't just mean being able to do random things and not being subject to thermodynamics and gravity and everything, in the context of a human being's will to live, it simply has to do with being subject to the will of another human being, and the reasons for that.

As Hannah Arendt said in an interview:

> The whole of Kants morality boils down to the fact that every human has to consider if each of their actions could be general law. This means.. it's the the extreme opposite of obedience, so to speak! Everybody is lawgiver. No human has the right to obey according to Kant. [..] We obey in this sense, as long as we are children, because it is necessary. There obedience is a very important thing. But this should end at the latest at age fourteen or fifteen.

In that sense, I would also make a distinction between discipline and coercion. E.g. choosing (and keeping to reflect on and affirming) even the most rigid principles and living by them is not a reduction, but an expression of autonomy. If you are your own captor -- and you're aware of it, and it's a voluntary choice, rather than a rationalization like like with drug addiction or mental problems -- then you're not really a prisoner.

When I work on something I love, I sometimes work my ass off. I could never ever work this hard on command, outside of a slave camp with actual guns pointed at me. There is simply no way. But when I'm in "in the zone"? I love it, because there isn't just pressure, there is also grip that translate it into motion in a direction that fulfills me.

The same goes for helping people or doing chores that I agree need to be done. E.g. once I and people from an FB group helped clean the flat of a woman who was lethally scared of an upcoming landlord inspection.. and so ashamed of the state of her flat that she actually wasn't even there while we did it. I cleaned nicotine stains from surfaces with baking soda for two days and it felt good then, and still feels good thinking back on it. According to her best friend who had organized the thing she broke out in tears of joy when she saw the result. If I had to do it for money for someone who then complains about the result, it would have been degrading. Same work, different context, completely different result. Extend that to a lifespan and it's really no wonder.

I think people can't care deeply about things they don't have some kind of ownership of, and doing things we don't or can't care deeply about makes us sick. Which is good, because it also means doing things we care about makes us happy, so let's do that :D

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#254

I'm American but I've lived overseas for nearly a decade, and I hardly ever go back. In recent years when I meet other Americans who are visiting my city, I often get this vague feeling that they're just trying too hard in one way or another. Maybe they're working too hard, or trying too hard to impress someone, or get attention, or assert themselves. I don't know if I've changed or if America is changed or if it's s…

Maybe it's the Internet? It's filled with success porn (exceptional people giving talks, streaming while they work etc.), as well as ordinary people giving each other pep talks (for example, gamedev subreddit is full of people telling you should be making games in addition to your full time job).

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to the amount required to not want to spend most of their time grinding to acquire a decent life.

We're missing any kind of definition for "a decent life" (or indeed "grinding" for that matter). I live in an region where the population density is at least 50 times less than that of greater London. We have few Michelin-starred restaurants, a distinct lack of opera houses, and no top-ranked universities. I'm not bothered in the slightest. Living in London (or NYC, or the Bay Area) is, just like so many other things…

[deleted]

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well their job is to please their clients above all else not the ad targets. That crops up a lot like enterprise software being infamously hated because it is geared at looking good to procurers and not the end user - and not even in an "annoying to deal with but it does the job efficiently and cheaply". If you were to say working in advertising Girl Scout Cookies in Cannabis Advocate magazines you would get fired so…

>Well their job is to please their clients above all else not the ad targets. I find this comment fascinating, in that: 1. If more of the 'ad targets' (ie. consumers) knew this, then it wouldn't work so well. 2. The advertising industry, by keeping their clients happy, are treating the customers of their clients as a resource to be squeezed wherever and whenever possible, and the clients are obviously fine with this.…

The goals aren't entirely disjoint either for commercial but for cause campaigning and strong dogma they may be able to sustain the relationship indefinitely. A fanatical evangelist business owner indefinitely posting on a billboard in fiery red letters "Are you going to hell?!" on a billboard may well be counterproductive to conversion but as long as the customer is happy the advertiser doesn't care that everybody hates that billboard.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to the amount required to not want to spend most of their time grinding to acquire a decent life.

We're missing any kind of definition for "a decent life" (or indeed "grinding" for that matter). I live in an region where the population density is at least 50 times less than that of greater London. We have few Michelin-starred restaurants, a distinct lack of opera houses, and no top-ranked universities. I'm not bothered in the slightest. Living in London (or NYC, or the Bay Area) is, just like so many other things…

[deleted]

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me on this doll of the org chart where the responsibility was abdicated. If you're a summer intern, sure, you can go home and feel good about getting extra credit. If you're the CEO who pushes dark patterns and chooses to sacrifice security for profit, you should toss-and-turn at night. But at which point can we say, "you, the person who knowingly implemented this piece of shit pattern that enables malware to be…

If you're the person without whom the project can't go ahead or will suffer a major inconvenience (at worst, filling your position with someone else) then you get part of the collective responsibility.

If you write code you know will harm people, you get part of the collective responsibility, no matter how much of a cog you are.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#259
post #243

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The work that programmers do is not physical. Management have a hard time seeing the result of our work. What always ends up happening because of this is that managers start to manage time spent instead of value outputted. Since the work done is all very vague for them, the best programmer is the one that finish their projects the fastest . We do our own estimates and our subconscious is trying to "win" that race. So…

I've read this narrative that only the programmer cares about the quality of the work many times. I find, however, that sometimes the programmer cares more about showing off how clever they are then building a quality and simple system that is delivered in a reasonable time frame. Hacker News has this narrative that programmers are always right and always smarter than "management" or any other non-programmer. That's…

Of course this is but an anecdote from my point of view based on the workplaces that I experienced.

What I've lived through a lot of time is teams of senior programmers led by junior managers. Sometimes they are fresh out of school and have never led any team. Heck, sometimes senior programmers turn into code monkeys because they are hired as nothing more than glorified trophies. IT teams having to answer directly to sales department managers, etc.

Teams of juniors or intermediates are way more likely to make mistakes such as the one you describe. I've seen my share and I do agree that they exist. People migrating entire projects to the language-du-jour and creating a bad situation for everyone because they didn't master that language and ended up refactoring stable solutions into shaky messes.

In a perfect world, we would have a team of strong senior programmers leading a few juniors under a strong management team.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#260
post #236
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for a massive exodus of US citizens to Europe for healthcare. Also the perceived society crumbling is self-imposed. Raging culture wars, terrorism as an excuse for totalitarian paranoia, freely accessible firearms, school shootings, obesity epidemic, trade tariffs, monopolistic corporations lobbying for laws, ecological disasters. Frankly, I'm happy with my European backwater if the cost of getting off we…

I emigrated from America to the UK. Healthcare is the number one thing that would make me trepidatious about moving back, far ahead of the gun violence and even the general political lunacy.

Healthcare is insane here. I have a relatively good health insurance but a trip to the ER (no ambulance) for abdominal pains still cost me $1600 out of pocket. I questioned going to the ER and tried to wait as long as I could but figured if I have insurance then I might as well use what I have. I should have waited longer. I fully understand why under-insured people will avoid going to the doctor or ER until it's either life-threatening or too late. Sometimes I think it would be better just to get the cheapest insurance and build up the emergency fund more.
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