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How hustle culture took over advertising

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Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#31

Post by pavel_lishin »

balthasar wrote: post #25
esotericn wrote: post #2

So, this is the industry that: - puts flashing colored boxes in front of our faces at any possible opportunity - requires us to click through multiple popups to access almost any for-profit website - has normalized the act of wasting human life at a mass scale by injecting multi-minute time-wasting sessions in activities "How hustle culture took over"? It's a hustle by default. I'd call it a swindle.

The employees still deserve to be respected and allowed to live normal lives outside of this corporate "hustler culture."

Show me on this doll of the org chart where the responsibility was abdicated.

If you're a summer intern, sure, you can go home and feel good about getting extra credit. If you're the CEO who pushes dark patterns and chooses to sacrifice security for profit, you should toss-and-turn at night. But at which point can we say, "you, the person who knowingly implemented this piece of shit pattern that enables malware to be delivered straight into my machine, did a bad thing, and are personally culpable"?

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#32

Post by apatters »

djpr wrote: post #28
apatters wrote: post #24

I'm American but I've lived overseas for nearly a decade, and I hardly ever go back. In recent years when I meet other Americans who are visiting my city, I often get this vague feeling that they're just trying too hard in one way or another. Maybe they're working too hard, or trying too hard to impress someone, or get attention, or assert themselves. I don't know if I've changed or if America is changed or if it's s…

I'm curious, where do you work now and who are your clients? I worked in Asia and the work culture with the Chinese (mainlanders) and those of Chinese-descent (Chinese Malaysians, Chinese Singaporean) was more challenging than working with Americans. When I was in advertising, stories of people working and staying (as in sleeping over) during the weekends was not uncommon. Clients would call me at 11pm asking for a c…

I'm in Thailand and our customers are almost all in the US. Some Thai companies have a pretty grueling culture, six days a week, little/no vacation, etc.

Our customers don't try to micromanage as long as we're getting results. I think our approach to work just comes down to me setting the tone. I was very lucky to have a teacher all the way back in elementary school who drilled the "Work smarter, not harder" mentality into my head from an early age.

And I've maintained 100% ownership of my company, therefore I exert the main influence over the culture. The way we do things works so I have no desire to change it.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#33

Post by josefresco »

"Of course, every industry has its fair share of hustle idolization, but ad agencies and advertising in general are unique"

Expand your horizons! Ad agencies are not unique. Boasting about the number of hours your work is one of the oldest, most tired tropes in many industries.

I have clients across all sectors that simultaneously boast and complain about their long hours and how committed they are to their business, or employer. Early rise, stay late, skip lunches, skip vacations, work from home even on holidays - I've heard it all - how is this unique to just the advertising / agency industry?

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#34

Post by whatshisface »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #31
balthasar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employees still deserve to be respected and allowed to live normal lives outside of this corporate "hustler culture."

Show me on this doll of the org chart where the responsibility was abdicated. If you're a summer intern, sure, you can go home and feel good about getting extra credit. If you're the CEO who pushes dark patterns and chooses to sacrifice security for profit, you should toss-and-turn at night. But at which point can we say, "you, the person who knowingly implemented this piece of shit pattern that enables malware to be…

>If you're a summer intern, sure, you can go home and feel good about getting extra credit.

Unless the summer intern didn't accomplish a single thing, maybe not. I would say that you are guilty if you ordered something bad to be done, or carried out a bad order, and an accomplice to the guilty if you supported the actions of someone who was ordering or carrying out something bad.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#35

Post by alxlaz »

balthasar wrote: post #25
esotericn wrote: post #2

So, this is the industry that: - puts flashing colored boxes in front of our faces at any possible opportunity - requires us to click through multiple popups to access almost any for-profit website - has normalized the act of wasting human life at a mass scale by injecting multi-minute time-wasting sessions in activities "How hustle culture took over"? It's a hustle by default. I'd call it a swindle.

The employees still deserve to be respected and allowed to live normal lives outside of this corporate "hustler culture."

This can be said of anyone who is taking part in an abusive activity, and it's equally untrue every time it is said. Advertisement is a very high-end job in the grand scheme of things. People who work in advertising have many career choices at their disposal, it's not like it was the only available job to people in their district and social class, the way mining jobs were in mining towns a hundred years ago. It's a choice that they made, and continue to make every day.

The advertising industry isn't the way it is because it has a will of its own. It ended up like this because a bunch of people shaped it to be like this, and even more people agreed that this is how things should be.

I can understand people who are just starting out in this activity getting a free pass -- they don't really know how things are going in this field, so it makes sense to be a little lax on accountability.

But after that? Why avoid responsibility after that? Or is "making a difference" something we're only allowed to say if you're making a good difference in the world?

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#36

Post by esotericn »

alxlaz wrote: post #35
balthasar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employees still deserve to be respected and allowed to live normal lives outside of this corporate "hustler culture."

This can be said of anyone who is taking part in an abusive activity, and it's equally untrue every time it is said. Advertisement is a very high-end job in the grand scheme of things. People who work in advertising have many career choices at their disposal, it's not like it was the only available job to people in their district and social class, the way mining jobs were in mining towns a hundred years ago. It's a c…

I agree with most of what you've said, but I'd add:

> People who work in advertising have many career choices at their disposal

This is a rhetorical trap. If someone has no options left but to abuse their fellow man in order to survive - that doesn't make it respectable.

Inevitable - sure. Something we should tolerate? No, we should call it out, and work to eliminate the circumstances that lead to that sort of thing happening.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#37

Post by sin7 »

village-idiot wrote: post #5
esotericn wrote: post #2

So, this is the industry that: - puts flashing colored boxes in front of our faces at any possible opportunity - requires us to click through multiple popups to access almost any for-profit website - has normalized the act of wasting human life at a mass scale by injecting multi-minute time-wasting sessions in activities "How hustle culture took over"? It's a hustle by default. I'd call it a swindle.

I always thought that hustler was synonymous with confidence artist or a low level scammer. That it’s now considered a positive word is fascinating to me.

Hustler is used a lot in rap. It's always been there. A hustler hustles. They put in work. They are in the grind. It's all about turning a nickel into a dime. In other words, they sell a lot of crack. Nothing deep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbwTCrnktY - Cassidy - I'm a hustler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv6CbP4kVno - Lil Wayne - Hustler Muzic

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#38

Post by alxlaz »

nimbius wrote: post #29

As a professional diesel mechanic, I find most of the points in this article pretty difficult to understand outside the context of, say, Hollywood? or maybe iPhones? Do programmers really have to show this kind of reckless drive? This hasnt been a thing in tradecraft since...forever i dont think...and if it is, its punished pretty severely. An example: if im rebuilding the idler and pitman assembly on a fourteen ton…

It varies from one company to another.

Responsible managers (and, by extension, companies) don't encourage this kind of behaviour, precisely because when it goes south, it tends to blow up in your face, badly, especially in heavily-regulated fields where legal responsibility is involved.

Irresponsible managers (and, again, companies) encourage this kind of behaviour because they think it better aligns with their business goals somehow.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#39

Post by alxlaz »

esotericn wrote: post #36
alxlaz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This can be said of anyone who is taking part in an abusive activity, and it's equally untrue every time it is said. Advertisement is a very high-end job in the grand scheme of things. People who work in advertising have many career choices at their disposal, it's not like it was the only available job to people in their district and social class, the way mining jobs were in mining towns a hundred years ago. It's a c…

I agree with most of what you've said, but I'd add: > People who work in advertising have many career choices at their disposal This is a rhetorical trap. If someone has no options left but to abuse their fellow man in order to survive - that doesn't make it respectable. Inevitable - sure. Something we should tolerate? No, we should call it out, and work to eliminate the circumstances that lead to that sort of thing…

> If someone has no options left but to abuse their fellow man in order to survive - that doesn't make it respectable.

Respectable as an activity, no, but understandable -- yes. From the comfort of your own home after a light lunch, it's easy to say that you should refuse to participate in the advertising industry, even if that means starving on the streets. The people who choose advertising over seeing their kids grow up without a childhood certainly don't deserve the kind of wrath and disrespect that we (justly!) show to those who engage in this dubious kind of activity so that they can get a bigger yacht.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#40

Post by tome »

esotericn wrote: post #27
balthasar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employees still deserve to be respected and allowed to live normal lives outside of this corporate "hustler culture."

Why should employment be treated as a shroud? If you spend the majority of your time working to abuse your fellow man, I don't respect that, and see no reason why I should. That is not, and should not be accepted as, a "normal life". Advertising companies are a disease.

(I found this usage of "shroud" interesting. It seems to be in the same sense as "corporate veil":

https://www.guffo.in/lifting-corporate-veil-circumstances-ca... )

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