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How hustle culture took over advertising

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Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#91

Post by varjag »

johnchristopher wrote: post #75
yitianjian wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey - I've never really heard about the "Church of Pavlina", and Google isn't really forthcoming. Do you mind explaining what you mean a bit?

Sure (sorry about being cryptic). Steve Pavlina is one of the first superstar of the online self-help world (dating back to 2004 or 2006). It started with an article on a famous website for programmers (can't remember the name atm) about how he dig really deep with his first game and so others were playing catching up but he was raking in a steady monthly income (see where we are going and who would be interested ?).…

The overwork culture certainly predates blogs.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#92

Post by dsfyu404ed »

nimbius wrote: post #29

As a professional diesel mechanic, I find most of the points in this article pretty difficult to understand outside the context of, say, Hollywood? or maybe iPhones? Do programmers really have to show this kind of reckless drive? This hasnt been a thing in tradecraft since...forever i dont think...and if it is, its punished pretty severely. An example: if im rebuilding the idler and pitman assembly on a fourteen ton…

All the flat rate monkeys working on consumer vehicles are working to slap things together as fast as possible (without doing such a terrible job that it comes back) so they can log the book hours and move on to the next job (presuming the shop is busy enough for there to perpetually be a next job).

I take it you work in a relatively high margin part of the industry. The skilled trades is just as much of a rat race in the low margin shops where the vast majority of people start their careers.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#93

Post by varjag »

someguydave wrote: post #26

Meanwhile over in this other thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18271834 We learn that you aren't really an "entrepreneur" unless you are a salesman. Business without "hustle" is unthinkable?

Every traditional business is living from sales, it's incredible you find this shocking.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#94

Post by logifail »

esotericn wrote: post #71
apatters wrote: post #24

I'm American but I've lived overseas for nearly a decade, and I hardly ever go back. In recent years when I meet other Americans who are visiting my city, I often get this vague feeling that they're just trying too hard in one way or another. Maybe they're working too hard, or trying too hard to impress someone, or get attention, or assert themselves. I don't know if I've changed or if America is changed or if it's s…

I don't see this as being unique to the US. It's pretty similar in London (UK), for example. Here, it's about the fact that most people are hilariously, almost comically underpaid. The cheapest 1 bedroom flat I can find within an hour of the centre is going to be in the ballpark of 200K. So if you don't have established wealth, or earn at least 50K (4x mortgage), you're a prole. Unsurprisingly, people don't want to b…

>> "Comically underpaid"

Underpaid compared to what? To what they might earn elsewhere? To the cost of buying a house or flat?

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#95

Post by AnimalMuppet »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #90
ovi256 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>actions that roughly cancel each other out Welcome to the 'the service industry is a job program for the middle class' view. It's not a rosy one, and the predictions it makes even less so.

I've been entertaining that view for a long time now wrt. advertising, but what other service job has the same characteristics? Namely, that your works serves mostly to undo the results of your peers' work, and vice versa?

I think medical insurance has a component like this. The doctor's office has people in it whose job is to make sure that the doctor gets paid, and the insurance company's office has people in it who try to find ways to not pay.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#96

Post by lanewinfield »

esotericn wrote: post #85
lanewinfield wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hatred of advertising at a larger scale, nice. How are those people on said websites (and almost any other medium) supposed to make money?

Examples, with specific citation: My local bus stop has adverts (London). My local metro station does too (London). They're all over the roads (UK). They're in pubs (UK). They're on paid television services (Sky). They're on paid programs (Windows 10). They're shown before movies (cinema, UK). Advertising is _everywhere_, in paid services, unpaid services, whatever. Unless I'm in my own, or a friend's private home I…

I understand this but it doesn't really counteract my point: it pays for stuff. It (helps) pay for your bus stop (or at least it does in the states), it's on paid television because you'd have to pay EVEN MORE for it, and movies on top of that.

Now, if you made an argument that the entire structure is screwed up and the people at the top deserve to make less and therefore not needing as much cash flow and therefore we should be able to cut the ads, THEN I might agree...

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#97

Post by vinceguidry »

helipad wrote: post #63
johnchristopher wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does this all come from? This is an honest question. Why are people working themselves to death in the US and having this crazy mindset that doing stuff which puts you on the verge of a breakdown is good? When did this start? I believe it all started when the Church of Pavlina opened and easy access to personal development blog fueled by Ferris and others. The ubermensch was promoted. At the same time Amazon…

Isn't Tim Ferriss' belief the opposite of overworking? I thought that was the whole point of the 4-hour Work Week.

The Four Hour workweek is a dream reached either by working really really really hard to build a business, or by basically strong-arming your employer into letting you work while you're relaxing on a beach.

It's all right there in his book, but like anything that inspires people, most people read what they want to read and not the actual words on the page.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#98

Post by PavlovsCat »

petra wrote: post #83
PavlovsCat wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When meaning and agency get steadily stripped away, or are even thrown away gladly, until all that remains are metrics that pretend to fill the hole but never really do, the hamster wheel efficiency goes up by a gazillion percent. A phrase by John Cleese in another context comes to mind: "operating at a very, very low level of mental health." Most people would find that offensive if they heard it head on, but then co…

>> I think his work is to a large extent, meaningless, So create your own meaning. tell your own story. What's wrong with "i take in a job that feed me and my coworkers" for meaning ? As for autonomy - that's different.

> As for autonomy - that's different.

Different as in separate from meaning? I disagree.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#99

Post by esotericn »

logifail wrote: post #94
esotericn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see this as being unique to the US. It's pretty similar in London (UK), for example. Here, it's about the fact that most people are hilariously, almost comically underpaid. The cheapest 1 bedroom flat I can find within an hour of the centre is going to be in the ballpark of 200K. So if you don't have established wealth, or earn at least 50K (4x mortgage), you're a prole. Unsurprisingly, people don't want to b…

>> "Comically underpaid" Underpaid compared to what? To what they might earn elsewhere? To the cost of buying a house or flat?

Compared to the amount required to not want to spend most of their time grinding to acquire a decent life.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#100

Post by pavel_lishin »

esotericn wrote: post #57
pavel_lishin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me on this doll of the org chart where the responsibility was abdicated. If you're a summer intern, sure, you can go home and feel good about getting extra credit. If you're the CEO who pushes dark patterns and chooses to sacrifice security for profit, you should toss-and-turn at night. But at which point can we say, "you, the person who knowingly implemented this piece of shit pattern that enables malware to be…

It really depends what you mean by 'personally culpable'. I don't think anyone should have force used against them (e.g. prison time, fines). However, it's not only completely fair, but inevitable, that someone's actions influence how they're seen by others. If your job involves being an asshole, then it's completely unsurprising that people will see you as an asshole. Because you are one. The fact someone pays you t…

Maybe I should have said "ethically" or "morally" instead of personally. I'm not suggesting we ride people out of town on a rail, or tar and feather them, but I definitely agree that if you work for an asshole company doing asshole things, that makes you an asshole, with all the social consequences that follow the label.
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