As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men • Hacker News Board

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#181

Post by jonathanstrange » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #114

DoreenMichele wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. Basically because if it is cultural, it may be a form of brainwashing and the expressed preference may actually be something they loathe, but don't feel empowered to reject. Whether or not you think this matters for purposes of making policy, it matters a whole lot for purposes of an individual figuring out how to create a good…

"the expressed preference may actually be something they loathe, but don't feel empowered to reject" But we can ask them, right? We can ask e.g. nurses and computer programmers whether or not they loathe the choice of their profession. If there is e.g. relatively more computer programmers loathing it than nurses then you have an evidence of culturally pushed preference (towards computer programming, in this case), re…

No, you cannot just ask. It's more complicated than that, as Amartya Sen laid out in many publications on his capability theory. People have "adaptive preferences".[1]

For example, if you ask a women in a very poor rural region of India whether she wants to become an engineer, she might value the possibility far less than she would if that career choice was a realistic, valuable option for her in her current situation. Other typical examples would be slaves who prefer to remain slaves because they are not in a position to really imagine life as a free man, women who state that they prefer to wear a Burka, because they have been raised that way, or a peasant in feudal times who would only have very modest aspirations because he could not possibly imagine living the life of a nobleman whose higher rights were given by God.

More generally speaking, the underlying problem is that the so-called "preference satisfaction view" is false.[2: p. 4] That's the idea of classical welfare economics that people prefer what's best for them. As Broome puts it, nobody really believes it, but it forms the basis of many arguments and theorizing.

So you cannot just ask, although surveys can be used as (potentially fallible) indicators.

[1] https://www.iep.utm.edu/sen-cap/#SH1b [2] https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ethics-out-of-economics...

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#182

Post by vidarh » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #146

jezze wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this is the part I don't see the clear logic in. I mean how much of a persons preferences are biological vs taught/environmental behaviour. I would accept the results straight up if it's all because of biological reasons but to me it's not that clear. Imagine if we brought up women to be amazon warriors, of course they would have different preferences compared to women today no? You often pick a career after wha…

It seems pretty obvious to me that gender differences are due to a mix of cultural pressures and biology. Here's a study that indicates some biological origin, for example: https://www.psypost.org/2017/12/study-finds-robust-sex-diffe... It weirds me out to find people who believe that these preferences are solely due to cultural pressure. It reeks of ideological blindness to me.

People who believe this is solely cultural pressure should try having children.

While, sure, you can raise children to be much more willing to challenge gender norms, and you can raise them to not hide or be ashamed of where their personal preferences violate cultural gender norms, every parent I've known that have strongly believed it was all cultural have ended up changing their mind after they've tried their hardest to give their kids gender neutral toys and clothes, or a mix of "boys" and "girls" stuff, and found their kids even at toddler stage gravitate to "typical" boys/girls stuff.

I think it's great they give their kids the choice and don't judge if they pick stuff that doesn't "conform", and I personally find it very annoying how e.g. clothes stores often draw hard lines between boys and girls stuff even when there's not even a half-plausible reason (no, a minecraft t-shirt for a prepubescent child is not gender specific in any way), but at the same time I also personally saw my son express a very strong preference for or against certain things related to gender identity from he was very little, and if we'd tried to push him to ignore that preference we'd be just as bad as parents who push for conformity.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#183

Post by aiisjustanif » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #86

PeterisP wrote: post #21

Equality of opportunities and equality of outcomes are incompatible as long as the source groups differ in any meaningful way, even "just" in preferences, which is a very big factor in choice of profession. In order to get equality of outcomes, you would need to enforce inequality of opportunities.

But it's assuming equality of outcome is what's best. Personnaly, i'm glad i can wear big shorts and not small suits. What makes it harder is that some people don't know what they need and just look at the neighbour's plate and require to have the same.

And I like wearing suits and not being judged for the only guy not wearing shorts. However, I understand the convenience and access of people being allowed to wear shorts, but not forced because it's easier, cheaper, and less intimidating for everyone to wear shorts.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#184

Post by sureaboutthis » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

Is this the first time someone figured out that women are different than men?

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#185

Post by js8 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #174

js8 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society." I am not sure why would I want to do that. As a leftist (being pro-equality), I don't really want there to be anybody who got a bad deal in society. But why should it matter which group are they part of? It seems chauvinistic to me.

If you don't want there to be anybody who got a bad deal in society, first you need to understand whether or not where they are now is where they want to be or somewhere they ended because other options were closed to them. If you don't know if they got a bad deal, you don't even know if there's anything to fix, much less how. But you can't just ask people that, because people make a whole lot of choices based on wha…

I believe people are grown up enough to tell me if they think something is wrong. So I don't see why simply asking is not enough. (I understand that some people don't want to complain directly in oppressive regime, so assuming that's not the case.)

And in my opinion, society doesn't ask people enough what they want. I am a big fan of direct democracy, which is pretty much that - asking people what their preferences (about how the society should operate) are.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#186

Post by perpetualcrayon » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #48

torben-friis wrote: post #37

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

From a personal / everyday perspective it's probably not that interesting. But uncovering the inherent nature of something, regardless of what it is, is always going to be interesting to large numbers of people.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#187

Post by msh » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:57 PM UTC

Mon29Oct wrote: post #176

This has been observed since Scandinavian countries pushed very female-friendly work laws, only to have differences in gender preferences more marked than ever. The book The Nordic Gender Equality Paradox submits two pieces of explanation to it, which are that 1/ One of the reforms was to offer sumptuous parent leave, encouraging parents to distance themselves from work for a significant duration, but which made the…

I don't know that book, but it's wrong on childcare being less affordable.

Atleast in Denmark and Sweden child care is heavily subsidized, to the point of being free for very low income parents (in dk). So there is no way it can make economic sense for mothers not to work. And stay at home moms (for more than 1-2 years) is rare compared to the USA.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#188

Post by jki275 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #160

knorker wrote: post #111

Woah there, you can't say that! That's what Damore got fired for!

Stealing from myself from an old comment [1]: there is a difference between what Damore intended to say (assuming the best case) and what his memo actually said. He might have wanted to say "women tend like other things", but his memo ended up saying "women are incapable of doing this thing". He may have had good intentions, but in writing the difference matters. A similar result is seen when authors argue that widel…

I just went back and read Damore's memo, and that idea does not appear anywhere in it.

I'm curious how you tortured that out of his words.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#189

Post by js8 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

oarsinsync wrote: post #167

js8 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society." I am not sure why would I want to do that. As a leftist (being pro-equality), I don't really want there to be anybody who got a bad deal in society. But why should it matter which group are they part of? It seems chauvinistic to me.

> "It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society." > I am not sure why would I want to do that. > As a leftist (being pro-equality), I don't really want there to be anybody who got a bad deal in society. I think the issue is that there are very large numbers of people who have gotten a bad deal in society. Investigating every individual, individually, is probably time and cost…

I disagree. We should look at people who got the bad deal directly (for example, are poor), not put them into some group. The latter is indirect and just more misleading. It is buying into a chauvinist narrative and strengthening it.

"I think we'd all like to live in that utopia where nobody gets a bad deal in society"

This is objectively not true. Many people don't care about other people getting bad deal.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#190

Post by apatters » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 2:00 PM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #144

js8 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

Because if it is purely cultural then aiming for 50/50 gender parity across all industries is a reasonable goal. If it is not, it is a 'terrible', 'terrible' idea to approach gender equality from that angle.

Why would 50/50 gender parity across all industries ever be a desirable goal? Coal mining is male dominated -- should we push more women into becoming coal miners?