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As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

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Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#151

Post by watwut »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #121
xor1 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people have been harmed due to their wealth. Does that mean you would rather be poor than rich?

What I wish is that I had not been molested and raped as a child and that I weren't currently being cyberstalked by nefarious individuals that have a track record of genuinely materially harming me. In fact, I wish a short list of people who have harmed me and will not cease and desist their icky crap would kindly drop dead as the only thing they could possibly do to enhance my life. I also wish I didn't have to put…

It that harassement about you being attractive or more of about that person being asshole on power trip? What I mean to say is that even if you was ugly and all women would cover themselves from toes to head, assholes on poverty trip (of both genders) would still harass and abuse.

I wish it will get better for you.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#153

Post by grenoire »

dekken_ wrote: post #148
grenoire wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peterson in person is Peterson in his lectures, see comments below. Make up your mind yourself, and try to understand why people like and hate him both ways. He's a pretty compassionate guy as far as I can tell, he just can't tolerate people who aren't willing to have proper discourse with him.

> he just can't tolerate people who aren't willing to have proper discourse with him why would anyone? if it's not a discussion it's a battle of ideologies and someone (them/they) have to win

Case in point, you are disregarding what he has to say as branding him as an ideologue. You don't have to agree with everything someone says, and doing so would be philosophical suicide by the very definition of it. Just be a little more open on what you can take out his ideas, and if you're not interested in a specific subset of his subjects such as religion or identity politics or his diet (as one of the students in the audience asked him a question on), then just skip that. You be the judge, but be reasonable in your judgement.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#154

Post by pluma »

busterarm wrote: post #123
pluma wrote: post #95

There's a fairly simple explanation: in egalitarian societies femininity is socially acceptable even in "traditionally male" occupations. So women don't need to act "masculine" to make progress in those jobs. When it's socially acceptable for a CEO to be a mother and a woman, more women will feel comfortable pursuing a family in addition (rather than in exclusion) to a career. There's another fairly simple explanatio…

> When it's socially acceptable for a CEO to be a mother and a woman, more women will feel comfortable pursuing a family in addition (rather than in exclusion) to a career. Unfortunately this is probably going to be an unpopular thing to say, but I've seen how much work goes into both being a CEO and being a full-time parent up close. (With the caveat of: in the work culture here in the US...) Running a business that…

> With the caveat of: in the work culture here in the US

That's the point, though. The work culture in the US is actively hostile towards employees. Sick days usually seem to count towards your vacation days and expecting mothers and young parents barely get any additional time off.

As a counter-example, some businesses outside the US have "part-time" CEOs, sometimes with two people sharing the position if a full-time position is unavoidable.

This is why I said that "egalitarian" policies make the world a nicer place: a lot of policies necessary to make work culture more egalitarian also improve work culture for everyone else too, like reducing the number of working hours and increasing social welfare (i.e. paid time off for parents, actual paid medical leave instead of "sick days", etc).

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#155

Post by pokemongoaway »

JimGuns wrote: post #152

[flagged]

I got perminently shadow banned for a post supporting the same notion a few months ago... Very true, but I would not say, "women want." They're very subject to propaganda. Women being women is literally shunned in the last 50+ years of film and media, for the most part. With the exception of conservative and traditionalist movements that are constantly slandered, when you look into it. Women are less happy today than they've ever been - and so those of us who really love women and want to see them happy need to start standing up for the truth.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#156

Post by dekken_ »

grenoire wrote: post #153
dekken_ wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he just can't tolerate people who aren't willing to have proper discourse with him why would anyone? if it's not a discussion it's a battle of ideologies and someone (them/they) have to win

Case in point, you are disregarding what he has to say as branding him as an ideologue. You don't have to agree with everything someone says, and doing so would be philosophical suicide by the very definition of it. Just be a little more open on what you can take out his ideas, and if you're not interested in a specific subset of his subjects such as religion or identity politics or his diet (as one of the students i…

> you are disregarding what he has to say as branding him as an ideologue

I did no such thing how dare you

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#157

Post by ekianjo »

gizmo686 wrote: post #136
ekianjo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want equality of outcomes anyway? It goes against individual Freedom. As long as opportunities are as equal as they can be, the rest is just the reflection of what individuals want to focus on and achieve. Equality of outcomes will force some people to do what they dont want to, which is undesirable on many levels.

Because outcomes are easy to measure. Oppurtunity isn't. It doesn't help that we have indoctrinated a generation that there is no fundamental difference between any subgroup, so difference in outcome must be evidence of difference in oppurtunity.

Sure outcomes are easy to measure. So what feminists have to say about the lack of males in nursing? The lack of males in social services? The lack of males in elementary schools? The excess of male suicides vs females? Are they actually complaining about the lack of equality of outcome in such fields, or are they just cherry picking what fits their agenda ?

A rhetorical question.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#158

Post by dgzl »

ekianjo wrote: post #126
PeterisP wrote: post #21

Equality of opportunities and equality of outcomes are incompatible as long as the source groups differ in any meaningful way, even "just" in preferences, which is a very big factor in choice of profession. In order to get equality of outcomes, you would need to enforce inequality of opportunities.

Why would you want equality of outcomes anyway? It goes against individual Freedom. As long as opportunities are as equal as they can be, the rest is just the reflection of what individuals want to focus on and achieve. Equality of outcomes will force some people to do what they dont want to, which is undesirable on many levels.

Not that I support this idea, but you can think of this as equal opportunity vs equal equity. Some people might be better off naturally, and others might have created something better for themselves, but equal equity means that those who have succeeded should share the benefit.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#159

Post by creep »

Joe-Z wrote: post #83
js8 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you give an example, perhaps? In particular, can you give an illustrative example which explains the difference between "free to choose" and "actually free to choose"?

I have an anecdote which I found quite interesting: Last week I got to meet my cousin’s daughter for the first time. It was a family dinner and after everyone had eaten she pulled out her barbie dolls to play with. Since I‘ve been on HN for a few years now and this is not the first time I came across this topic I asked my cousin: Why does your daughter play with barbies? Did she choose the barbie doll or where they g…

Every year on my birthday or on Christmas, my aunt would gift me one of those stupid DIY sets for girls. Basically boxes of cheap play makeup, or glitter and some other crap for making bracelets or barrettes, or tie-dye for dyeing your clothing.

I hated them. They were obnoxious, lacked creativity, and smelled weird. I was a very willful child and loud about it, so I obviously refused to use these gifts in any capacity, but I think my refusal to play with toys I didn't like holds true for most children. If your cousin's girl didn't like the Barbie, she probably wouldn't play with it.

The whole point of childhood is having an idea of "I" without having a strong idea of identity so that we have a solid reference point for learning about the world without experiencing the blind spots that ego identities often impose. Consequently, we demand what we want and refuse what we don't want without thought. We rarely make compromises and our needs and wants cannot really be reasoned away by others (because our needs and wants in childhood are more instinctual/subconscious/impulsive than they are logical and experience-based).

I think we are most free to choose in childhood. By adulthood we have developed functioning identities and feel obligated to stay consistent with our idea of self. Many people take portions of their identification from a society's expectation of them, which is when freedom of choice becomes heavily blurred.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#160

Post by probably_wrong »

knorker wrote: post #111

Woah there, you can't say that! That's what Damore got fired for!

Stealing from myself from an old comment [1]: there is a difference between what Damore intended to say (assuming the best case) and what his memo actually said. He might have wanted to say "women tend like other things", but his memo ended up saying "women are incapable of doing this thing".

He may have had good intentions, but in writing the difference matters. A similar result is seen when authors argue that widely assumed interpretations of their literary characters are not what they intended. That, I believe, is what got him fired.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14984758

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