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Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

economist.com

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Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#101

Post by gaff33 »

ru999gol wrote: post #75
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #36

The fact that central banks have set the interest rate near zero already must play a role.

It seems if you save money at the bank they will actually loose money for you since their interest rate is lower than inflation. The financial market is such a clusterfuck lmao

I'm not going to claim that finance isn't a clusterfuck - but paying people to store things securely isn't exactly strange.

If anything the amazing thing was that people would pay us to look after our money in the first place!

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#102

Post by otras »

stealthcat wrote: post #98
Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #66

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling. These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users. On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduce…

>Even as a muslim myself, I feel like sharia finance is a step backwards. Are you an actual muslim or just by name. Don't invalidate your eemaan by saying Islam is inferior to man-made system. Even if you don't like the mufti and scholars, they've done the ijtihad based on the Quran and Sunnah for the best of muslims, and they are the responsible ones, not you. I don't know your intent but, Be EXTRA careful with your…

I’m not a Muslim, and this comment is very interesting. Do you mind explaining what you mean?

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#103

Post by tareqak »

mkaziz wrote: post #95
tareqak wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the argument of Tarek El Diwany. From the second last paragraph of the article: Some purists dislike the way modern sharia finance is run. Tarek El Diwany, a consultant, says banks are devising loopholes to sell nominally sharia-compliant products that are essentially the same as any other. For 1,400 years Islamic finance has been based on mutual ownership and profit-sharing, he says. But most sharia deposits…

do you have recommendations for reading up on this?

Not really. I did some searching on Tarek El Diwany and I found these two things:

http://www.kreatoczest.com/kz_publishing_ourtitles-pwi.htm

http://www.kreatoczest.com/kz_publishing_ourtitles-wawaid.ht...

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#104

Post by carlmr »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #100
stealthcat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even as a muslim myself, I feel like sharia finance is a step backwards. Are you an actual muslim or just by name. Don't invalidate your eemaan by saying Islam is inferior to man-made system. Even if you don't like the mufti and scholars, they've done the ijtihad based on the Quran and Sunnah for the best of muslims, and they are the responsible ones, not you. I don't know your intent but, Be EXTRA careful with your…

> Are you an actual muslim or just by name. Neat, I've never seen a No True Muslim fallacy before.

Never heard of Sunnis, Shiites, Allevites, Ahmadiyya? There are probably others I'm forgetting.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#105

Post by BeetleB »

ElBarto wrote: post #55
tgb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poster is probably referring to their avoidance of sin investments like arms and tobacco.

That's fine if you're willing to ignore the world of the middle East. The news recently should make clear how more ethical than the tobacco industry it is... not.

>That's fine if you're willing to ignore the world of the middle East.

Who said anything about Shariah finance being tied to the Middle East?

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#106

Post by jkaplowitz »

tareqak wrote: post #86
gruez wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

right, but the the gp said halal establishments always used vegetable oil instead of beef fat.

I can think of another reason too: these chippie vendors might also want to cater to other people who don’t want to eat beef e.g. some Hindus. Some halal Indian restaurants in San Francisco do something similar: they serve halal chicken and lamb, but no beef. tl;dr Vegetable oil ticks boxes for multiple sets of clientele.

That makes a good deal of sense. I'm a vegetarian, I appreciate it, but was merely surprised given that halal beef and halal beef fat exist. Thanks for these further speculations.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#107

Post by tareqak »

jerf wrote: post #85
tareqak wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the argument of Tarek El Diwany. From the second last paragraph of the article: Some purists dislike the way modern sharia finance is run. Tarek El Diwany, a consultant, says banks are devising loopholes to sell nominally sharia-compliant products that are essentially the same as any other. For 1,400 years Islamic finance has been based on mutual ownership and profit-sharing, he says. But most sharia deposits…

"banks are devising loopholes" But Tarek El Diwany repeats himself. There could be some real differences between conventional and Sharia-based lending, but, no sarcasm, banks are great at moving around risks in ways non-finance people can hardly imagine and it would be a trivial exercise for them to move the chips around to make the Sharia stuff merely appear to be Sharia while still being conventional, using the mas…

It’s definitely possible, but the sharia bank would also have a contractual obligation to share in the loss. For something like a mortgage on a home, the title would belong to the sharia bank until the loan was paid off. Banking becomes extremely conservative in state of affairs.

In theory, strict rules like these should be extremely hard to game; in practice, banks and other financial institutions are a little too creative.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#108

Post by tareqak »

n4r9 wrote: post #97
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was that it's "ethnic food from somewhere in southern Asia that's further west than Myanmar or so" not that it conforms to any particular religious requirement.

It's not even that! It's only that so-called "Indian" restaurants in the UK are halal more often than average. From my understanding most dishes you get in those restaurants in the UK are different to what you would actually get served anywhere in south-east Asia.

Oh! Your comment reminded me of something my dad told me (my country of origin is Bangladesh): https://www.quora.com/Why-are-almost-all-Indian-restaurants-... .

I wouldn’t say that that’s the only reason either. Even if a non-Muslim Indian does set up an Indian restaurant, they have a high chance of attracting recurring customers that happen to be Muslims that observe a keeping a halal diet.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#109

Post by tareqak »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #82
n4r9 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, actual figures would help a lot. The cynic in me suspects their absence is because they don't support the hypothesis. The claim that halal restaurants have an "almost religious following" among non-Muslims raises my eyebrows almost as much as the claims that e.g. there are "no-go areas" in Muslim parts of Birmingham. I've lived in various parts of the UK all my life, I've been involved in Muslim communities…

My experience is limited, but in America I've seen a few Muslim run restaurants use the word halal in their name, and have heard the term being used similarly to "Chinese food." The author may come from where that happens, and is referring to things like Pakistani cuisine.

To add some data, in San Francisco, you can find “The Halal Guys” (https://thehalalguys.com) and “Halal Wings Plus” (http://halalwingsplus.com).

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#110

Post by seeker61 »

stealthcat wrote: post #98
Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #66

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling. These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users. On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduce…

>Even as a muslim myself, I feel like sharia finance is a step backwards. Are you an actual muslim or just by name. Don't invalidate your eemaan by saying Islam is inferior to man-made system. Even if you don't like the mufti and scholars, they've done the ijtihad based on the Quran and Sunnah for the best of muslims, and they are the responsible ones, not you. I don't know your intent but, Be EXTRA careful with your…

Is this an accusation of takfir? Do you have evidence for this accusation? Or is it just that you find it easier to impugn a brother Muslim's practice than to argue the facts? (I'll bet you're really fun at parties.)
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