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Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

economist.com

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Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#61

Post by ataturk »

nextweek2 wrote: post #50

The title and article are using reglion as a context when it's not. As a consumer I am not converting to Sharia finance, I have just found a product which meets my requirements. The index fund I am invested in turns out to be mainly high tech stocks with a low fee, just because it has 'Islamic' in the fund name doesn't mean I'm a convert to the religious philosophy.

Mind you we have been living under Jewish finance for generations and that hasn't been going that well! Usury was a sin in the Catholic Church, iirc.

Which religion has stable, gold backed money and low taxes? I'd like to join that one.

I was going to find out if the Lakota tribe would adopt me and allow me to live with them as part of a peaceful, sovereign nation within North America. Also, the Amish are definitely on to something with how they live mostly outside of the corrupt, warmongering, inflationary system the US has.

I will say for the record that bankers being bankers, I doubt very much any type of financing will really ever be any different than any other. There's all these Type A guys out there with one thought in their brains--to shear the sheep as hard and as often as possible.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#62

Post by n4r9 »

tareqak wrote: post #48
n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

Yeah, some actual growth numbers and customer numbers would have been nice, but I don't see The Economist overselling the popularity at all; instead, I just see them saying that it is growing (based on my reading of the first paragraph). Edit: fix typo

I agree, actual figures would help a lot. The cynic in me suspects their absence is because they don't support the hypothesis.

The claim that halal restaurants have an "almost religious following" among non-Muslims raises my eyebrows almost as much as the claims that e.g. there are "no-go areas" in Muslim parts of Birmingham.

I've lived in various parts of the UK all my life, I've been involved in Muslim communities and I've been to a lot of restaurants, both halal and otherwise. Basically the only reason a restaurant will advertise its halal status is to indicate this fact to Muslims. It might be the case that e.g. Lebanese or Indian cuisine is popular among non-Muslim Brits, but that's because of the taste of the food. If anything, there are ethical concerns about halal meat in my peer groups due to the controversies over stunning, and undercover videos showing cruelty in some halal slaughterhouses.

Honestly, the first paragraph reads to me like a string of inflated claims that's been shivved in there to exaggerate the significance of the article's content.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#63

Post by tareqak »

ElBarto wrote: post #55
tgb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poster is probably referring to their avoidance of sin investments like arms and tobacco.

That's fine if you're willing to ignore the world of the middle East. The news recently should make clear how more ethical than the tobacco industry it is... not.

Nothing stops anyone from being against arms, tobacco, alcohol, and any oppression in Middle East. If you are trying to say that sharia and the Middle East are somehow equivalent or one is a subset of the other, then I disagree.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#64

Post by n4r9 »

ElBarto wrote: post #55
tgb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poster is probably referring to their avoidance of sin investments like arms and tobacco.

That's fine if you're willing to ignore the world of the middle East. The news recently should make clear how more ethical than the tobacco industry it is... not.

I wasn't making an assertion either way about Sharia banks. I just think it's good to have an open discussion about ethical banking in general.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#65

Post by ataturk »

stef25 wrote: post #23
tareqak wrote: post #11

I recognized person mentioned at the end of the article: Tarek El Diwany (same first name as me spelled differently) had a part in the "Four Horsemen" documentary ( https://youtu.be/5fbvquHSPJU?t=3479 ). I found an article about him in https://meic.cfainstitute.org/2012/03/21/islamic-finance-tar... .

The hypothesis that the war on terror (pointless as it may be) is actually driven by Western banks and the concept of intrest and that the solution lies in sharia banking laws is quite something to get your head around.

It's driven by the intelligence agencies and large corporations looking to make billions off of pain, suffering and destruction. It's the same as it has always been! It's just another imperial disaster that human history is replete with.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#66

Post by Mengkudulangsat »

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling.

These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users.

On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduced a level of uncertainty that was simply not there in conventional finance. If the building you constructed ended up being used as a cinema, then the shariah debt you used to finance that building needs to either be restructured or unraveled. Why on board such a risk?

Even as a muslim myself, I feel like sharia finance is a step backwards.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#67

Post by gadders »

philliphaydon wrote: post #44
hjek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in UK, I'm a fan of halal chippies as they always use vegetable oil instead of beef dripping for their chips and patties.

I'm always sad when I see signs with "No Lard No Pork No MSG" it's like all the good stuff taken away.

I just sang that to the tune of "Only Fools and Horses".

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#68

Post by gadders »

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

>THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers.

I think some people (not massive numbers, admittedly) avoid Halal restaurants/meat because the method of slaughter is less humane and doesn't typically involve stunning the animal first.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#69

Post by gruez »

tareqak wrote: post #57
jkaplowitz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Why? Halal definitely allows beef to be combined with potatoes.

The beef has to be halal beef. In this context of using beef fat as an additive to other food, the beef fat has to be halal as well.

right, but the the gp said halal establishments always used vegetable oil instead of beef fat.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#70

Post by superhuzza »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #66

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling. These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users. On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduce…

Complexity is a feature in modern financial products. It creates a larger knowledge gap between those selling the products and those buying them.
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