Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance • Hacker News Board

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#81

Post by michaelcampbell » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:16 PM UTC

vectorEQ wrote: post #78

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

sharia /ʃəˈriːə/Submit noun Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet (Hadith and Sunna), prescribing both religious and secular duties and sometimes retributive penalties for lawbreaking. It has generally been supplemented by legislation adapted to the conditions of the day, though the manner in which it should be applied in modern states is a subject of dispute betw…

I wonder what their loan grant rate is to women compared to men, for example.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#82

Post by boomboomsubban » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

n4r9 wrote: post #62

tareqak wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, some actual growth numbers and customer numbers would have been nice, but I don't see The Economist overselling the popularity at all; instead, I just see them saying that it is growing (based on my reading of the first paragraph). Edit: fix typo

I agree, actual figures would help a lot. The cynic in me suspects their absence is because they don't support the hypothesis. The claim that halal restaurants have an "almost religious following" among non-Muslims raises my eyebrows almost as much as the claims that e.g. there are "no-go areas" in Muslim parts of Birmingham. I've lived in various parts of the UK all my life, I've been involved in Muslim communities…

My experience is limited, but in America I've seen a few Muslim run restaurants use the word halal in their name, and have heard the term being used similarly to "Chinese food." The author may come from where that happens, and is referring to things like Pakistani cuisine.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#83

Post by candiodari » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #66

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling. These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users. On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduce…

I must say I once read a prospectus for a sharia financed product. No "interest", only "percentual administrative fees".

Wait, what ?

Other than that, they're essentially "pulling an uber". They're significantly riskier investment schemes that most institutions have had really bad experiences with a few decades ago. They're ignoring regulations that exist for good reason, and regulators seem to let them for some reason (for now).

If you want to do that, great. Risky investments are most often the mispriced ones (cheaper then they ought to be). But please, do it yourself, figure out the risks, and don't let some institution do it for you with the promise of cover or ... or you will regret it.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#84

Post by zeist » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

vectorEQ wrote: post #78

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

sharia /ʃəˈriːə/Submit noun Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet (Hadith and Sunna), prescribing both religious and secular duties and sometimes retributive penalties for lawbreaking. It has generally been supplemented by legislation adapted to the conditions of the day, though the manner in which it should be applied in modern states is a subject of dispute betw…

There are many issues with Sharia law but women education or driving is not one of them.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#85

Post by jerf » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

tareqak wrote: post #52

ElBarto wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So-called 'sharia finance' isn't more ethical, not that there anything unethical with charging interests. What they do is a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid calling what you pay for a loan 'interest'.

That's the argument of Tarek El Diwany. From the second last paragraph of the article: Some purists dislike the way modern sharia finance is run. Tarek El Diwany, a consultant, says banks are devising loopholes to sell nominally sharia-compliant products that are essentially the same as any other. For 1,400 years Islamic finance has been based on mutual ownership and profit-sharing, he says. But most sharia deposits…

"banks are devising loopholes"

But Tarek El Diwany repeats himself.

There could be some real differences between conventional and Sharia-based lending, but, no sarcasm, banks are great at moving around risks in ways non-finance people can hardly imagine and it would be a trivial exercise for them to move the chips around to make the Sharia stuff merely appear to be Sharia while still being conventional, using the mass of conventional investments as raw material, in a way that also is set up so it works 99% of the time but will in some manner catastrophically fail in a Black Swan [1] event because of the games they played with moving risks around until even their own computers don't really understand it anymore.

[1]: Though as Taleb says, is it really a "Black Swan" when it was really quite predictable all along, if you just reject their statistical framework and use something with more realistic fat tails?

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#86

Post by tareqak » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #69

tareqak wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beef has to be halal beef. In this context of using beef fat as an additive to other food, the beef fat has to be halal as well.

right, but the the gp said halal establishments always used vegetable oil instead of beef fat.

I can think of another reason too: these chippie vendors might also want to cater to other people who don’t want to eat beef e.g. some Hindus. Some halal Indian restaurants in San Francisco do something similar: they serve halal chicken and lamb, but no beef.

tl;dr Vegetable oil ticks boxes for multiple sets of clientele.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#87

Post by tareqak » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:49 PM UTC

ElBarto wrote: post #76

tareqak wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These banks are UK banks that required by UK banking laws to know their customers (KYC [0]) and follow all applicable anti-money laundering laws. Every journalist in every news organization, mainstream or alternative, would love to break that sort of news if it were true. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

Most of them, if not all, have links with the middle East or other muslim countries. Either they are subsidiaries of middle eastern banks, or were funded by middle eastern investors. As a Westerner and an atheist, ethics to me is staying far away from these organisations.

I respect your choice, and I sincerely hope you treat the Western institutions that behave as reprehensibly as some Middle Eastern ones in a similar fashion.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#88

Post by agumonkey » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

frogeg wrote: post #58

agumonkey wrote: post #40

usury ?

They are Muslim banks, not Jewish banks. I suppose that is exactly the difference.

still the idea behind may be just that

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#89

Post by ayumu722 » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

vectorEQ wrote: post #78

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

sharia /ʃəˈriːə/Submit noun Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet (Hadith and Sunna), prescribing both religious and secular duties and sometimes retributive penalties for lawbreaking. It has generally been supplemented by legislation adapted to the conditions of the day, though the manner in which it should be applied in modern states is a subject of dispute betw…

> sharia law doesnt allow women to go to school or drive a car.

The prophet Mohamed said : "Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim".

there's another hadith that I wanted to post but I couldn't remember it, where the prophet talks about a time a couple of years after him where there will be peace to the point woman can travel a cross the desert on a camel alone, and this truly happened, if Islam had problem with woman traveling alone, he wouldn't mention this, there's a lot of things that people associate with Islam that has nothing to do with Islam, there's plenty of Muslim countries, and they are all different.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#90

Post by jcranmer » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

vectorEQ wrote: post #78

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

sharia /ʃəˈriːə/Submit noun Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet (Hadith and Sunna), prescribing both religious and secular duties and sometimes retributive penalties for lawbreaking. It has generally been supplemented by legislation adapted to the conditions of the day, though the manner in which it should be applied in modern states is a subject of dispute betw…

> - sharia law doesnt allow women to go to school or drive a car...

You've been listening to a lot of propaganda to believe that. The only country that bans women from driving is Saudi Arabia, and that is far from the only country that applies sharia. Sure, highly conservative Muslims will seek to deny women those rights, but that's based on the same kind of distorted readings as SCOTUS once claiming that African Americans could not be US citizens.