Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends • Hacker News Board

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#71

Post by alanlamm » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

endorphone wrote: post #4

rock_hard wrote: post #2

Apple cares about privacy so much, they let Google do the dirty part of the business and just take the checks.

Ignoring that you can change the search engine, what Google knows about a user using Google search on an iPhone, and a user using search on a Google Play Android device are extraordinarily different. Let's not pretend at some false equivalency here.

Surely Google gets more data from Android. But it does get much more data on iOS than Apple would have you believe. Case in point - Apple ostensibly prevents apps from uniquely identifying devices other than through ‘safe’ ad and vendor-specific ids. But just implement Google Firebase Anonymous Authentication in an app and try to get it to forget your id. you can delete the app and all other apps from same vendor, reset your ad id, set ‘limit tracking’ delete all google apps, clear google logins & passwords on your device, update the iOS, and when you reinstall it still knows who you are. Short of wiping the phone completely (which I haven’t tried bc of the hassle) Google appears to not only uniquely identify your device in a pretty sticky way, but to sell & give away this capability to anybody who wants it.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#72

Post by RobertoG » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

jimmy1 wrote: post #21

l3robot wrote: post #15

Disclaimer: I am not an historian nor a sociologist nor a political scientist. It is pure intuition, so please correct me if you find me wrong. This kind of article recalling the war declared between Apple and Google by strong characters (reaching almost royal admiration) like Steve Jobs and showing their alliance now forced by economical benefits, brings to my head an observation I make for some years now. It feels…

I don't know what to think either. Thinking about it at a higher level than this: Some days I really think people don't know how to live under a democracy. There just always seems to be this segment of the population that want to be told what to think (and preferably told things are going well) Some days I think liberty is the only way to live life, but that people mistake that liberty doesn't come at a cost. Most pe…

"I'm told I'm not even old enough to be this cynical."

Don't worry my young friend: if you think, as it seems by your comment, that there was a golden age in the past where people was better, you have a lot of way to go in your cynicism.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#73

Post by endorphone » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #47

lern_too_spel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are exactly the same. Despite what Apple marketing would like you to believe, the search app collects the same information when you perform the same actions on both devices.

"the search app" Genuinely - what's this on iOS? I don't recall ever having used a "search app" on my iPhone.

A lot of things are getting conflated in this discussion. We are discussing the default search if you type a non-URL in the address bar of Safari. This is what Google is paying for, and while it ends up on a website with the limited ability to track that a website has, the sphere of data that Google has is just a tiny pittance compared to on a Play Store device (where they know essentially everything).

People are bringing up the Google Search app, Chrome for iOS, etc. Irrelevant.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#74

Post by ummonk » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

Someguywhatever wrote: post #44

ummonk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's the issue. Even if they weren't getting paid, they'd still have to choose Google for a reasonable user experience. And I don't see that changing. It's one thing for Apple to get into Maps, and it's another for them to get into search...

Because google is essentially a monopoly. Almost nobody uses anything else. Because of this monopoly and all the advertising revenue, Google effectively has "infinite money" and uses it to metastasize into other areas such as maps, self driving cars etc. Nobody else can do this because nobody else has "infinite money", Google is losing money hand over fist in self driving cars, I seriously doubt that maps comes anywh…

Well, Apple has been getting competitive as late in Maps, and GM/Cruise is competitive on self-driving vehicles.

The big issue is Google's monopoly on english-language search, which together with Youtube gives it massive amounts of data on every person in the world, as well as giving it immense influence over public thought. I can see Youtube's monopoly ending (certainly, Instagram could have done it had Zuck not killed Instagram's attempts at long-form videos), but the gap between Google search and other competitors (only realistic ones are Bing and DDG) is immense, and probably insurmountable.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#75

Post by Aditya_Garg » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #55

Aditya_Garg wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DuckDuckGo is not it's own search engine. It's an aggregator of other search engines (mostly Bing).

I can't believe can't even do the tiniest bit of research. DDG isn't an aggregator, and it doesn't use Bing any more than it uses Google, Wikipedia, StackOverflow or anything else. https://duck.co/forum/thread/4350/did-you-know-that-duckduck...

From what Ive read, DDG uses Bing's API to populate its search results.

https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-Bing-API-used-by-DuckDuckGo

I was just trying to point out that Apple is unlikely to buy a search engine that relies on another competitor's product.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#76

Post by LeoPanthera » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:48 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #55

Aditya_Garg wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DuckDuckGo is not it's own search engine. It's an aggregator of other search engines (mostly Bing).

I can't believe can't even do the tiniest bit of research. DDG isn't an aggregator, and it doesn't use Bing any more than it uses Google, Wikipedia, StackOverflow or anything else. https://duck.co/forum/thread/4350/did-you-know-that-duckduck...

And yet their own documentation says that their "normal" search results come from Oath (Yahoo) and... Bing:

https://duck.co/help/results/sources

The other sources are only for their "instant answers" that appear at the top.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#77

Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:48 PM UTC

endorphone wrote: post #73

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the search app" Genuinely - what's this on iOS? I don't recall ever having used a "search app" on my iPhone.

A lot of things are getting conflated in this discussion. We are discussing the default search if you type a non-URL in the address bar of Safari. This is what Google is paying for, and while it ends up on a website with the limited ability to track that a website has, the sphere of data that Google has is just a tiny pittance compared to on a Play Store device (where they know essentially everything ). People are br…

> the sphere of data that Google has is just a tiny pittance compared to on a Play Store device (where they know essentially everything)

They know fewer things than Apple knows for people who never opt in to any of the opt in settings and leave opt out settings alone. On a Play Store device, AGPS data collection is opt in. On iOS, it is not even opt out — you can't even disable it.

Play Store devices look even better when you consider what can be opted out of by setting default apps and by installing system wide ad blockers.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#78

Post by LeoPanthera » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:49 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #49

SteveGregory wrote: post #30

I've wondered what would happen if Apple acquired DuckDuckGo. In theory, Apple could overpay a lot and still make a ridiculous return by using it as their default search engine. The usage would multiply overnight. It would also reinforce Apple's position on privacy, and make Apple less dependent on Google for revenue.

How would Apple make any return? Do you think DDG's ads are as profitable as Google's?

They could do what they usually do, and make the service available only to purchasers of Apple hardware.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#79

Post by kakaorka » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

antirez wrote: post #43

I wonder what would happen in a parallel universe where Google says, let's change strategy, and provide all the Google suite apps, gmail, maps, photos, ... only to Android, at the cost of the Apple users/traffic. Maybe this would provide a so big advantage to Android to, in the end, recover the loss and create big issues to Apple. But my feeling is that Google pretends that the iPhone is going to be eaten by Android…

I think what would happen is the opposite. Apple users would just stop using these apps and look for alternatives that exist on the App Store. Adobe tried to do what you're suggesting with Photoshop and it failed; now they're going to offer PS to the iPad.

Re: Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends

#80

Post by endorphone » Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #77

endorphone wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things are getting conflated in this discussion. We are discussing the default search if you type a non-URL in the address bar of Safari. This is what Google is paying for, and while it ends up on a website with the limited ability to track that a website has, the sphere of data that Google has is just a tiny pittance compared to on a Play Store device (where they know essentially everything ). People are br…

> the sphere of data that Google has is just a tiny pittance compared to on a Play Store device (where they know essentially everything) They know fewer things than Apple knows for people who never opt in to any of the opt in settings and leave opt out settings alone. On a Play Store device, AGPS data collection is opt in. On iOS, it is not even opt out — you can't even disable it. Play Store devices look even better…

Another conflation. I was specifically talking about what Google knows. By using an iOS device, even if I use Google Search their universe of knowledge about me collapses.

Even if I accept the notion that Apple collects more data than Google (which is dubious), Google's intentions with that data are far more insidious. I simply trust Apple a lot more as well.