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You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

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Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#431

Post by spdionis »

adrianmonk wrote: post #179
spdionis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the problem the other way around? In Europe taxes are included in the price from the start.

No, those two things are orthogonal. The convention in the US is to compute the tip on the pre-tax amount. If the pre-tax price is $10, a 20% tip is $2 and 8% tax is $0.80, for a total of $12.80. Now, some of this software has come along and tried to sneak in a change to the formula where the tip is computed on the post-tax amount. They take $10, add 8% tax to get $10.80, and then compute 20% of that for the tip, for…

I just meant that to simplify literally everything you could just work only in post-tax numbers like the rest of the world does.

Obviously this would indeed increase tip amount, but it would definitely decrease confusion and probably fix itself over the long run if the new tip amount was too big.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#432

Post by bootlooped »

threatofrain wrote: post #347
bootlooped wrote: post #7

I dislike the tip-at-purchase-time paradigm. I haven't even seen my order yet, how am I supposed to evaluate how much of a tip it warranted? But that gets to the heart of it really: tipping is more about subsidizing payroll than rewarding good service.

Even if the tip were scheduled differently, how often do you find yourself adjusting tip in an attempt to adjust service? If you get good service, will good tip ensure a good experience the next time around? If someone gave you bad service, do you make it known? I think most would prefer not to say anything.

Yeah, admittedly, I almost never adjust my tip amount based on perceived service quality. I don't think tipping generally affect service quality. The only way I really react to bad service is by not going to the establishment.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#433

Post by SilasX »

tptacek wrote: post #424
SilasX wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is trying to be clever, it could use some work, and if there's a substantive point, I'm not seeing it. The point is that your purported, self-glorifying norm asks one to pay the default PoS tip of everyone who demands or might demand it in the future, to say "yes" to all of them. Counter purchases, grocery stores, fast food, whatever. Could you maybe consider that there might be better and more practical heur…

Ok, but I draw the line at movie ticket box office purchases. That far, and no further.

So, no substantive contributions to make?

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#434

Post by tfha »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #282
tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

>A very easy, relatively pleasant way to get through life in the US if you're well-off enough that you routinely buy coffee in expensive coffee shops: just always tip. Anywhere there's a tip line. You never have to figure anything out, and sometimes people really appreciate it. This echoes the sentiment that 'if you can't afford to pay a X% tip, you can't afford to buy the product'. Problem is that it seems to keep g…

Yeah I remember when 15% was a good tip and 10% was socially acceptable. Today, even 15% can subject you to social criticsm.

Expected tip is definitely going up.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#435

Post by zbentley »

zaroth wrote: post #415
zbentley wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the tip is already there just in another form. That is making a lot of mistaken assumptions about how restaurant service works. I can only speak for myself and former colleagues, but very often increases in takeout orders correlated with fewer in-house patrons. Whether that was because Foodler was running a promotion, people who came in to sit down got discouraged by the sight of all the takeout business or what, I…

Even if take out orders are canibalizing dine-in orders, how does that have any bearing on my tipping strategy? The front of the house should be staffed appropriately based on the dine-in load, and the back of house should be staffed appropriately for the full cooking load. I don’t tip the front of house to hand me a bag. The hostess probably isn’t sharing the tips at most places anyway! If your manager is running a…

I was not commenting on or proposing changes to anyone’s strategy. I was pointing out the inaccuracy of the idea that tips are compensated in other ways when people order takeout. No restaurant is run well enough that there is not occasional idle or overworked time for staff.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#436

Post by bootlooped »

mojomark wrote: post #353
vec wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about "rewarding exceptional service" being a lie, but I don't think it's correct to frame tipping as "burden sharing". If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. In practice, it seems like tipping serves two main functions, neither of which are great for society at large. First, it allows businesses to advertise lower prices…

> If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. That sounds true in principle, but your ignoring the commision aspect of the service. In the tipping model, a very efficient server could, say, serve 100 miffins/hr and be tipped 20% each accordingly. A fast, but rude server could serve 100 muffins, but perhaps get 0-10% tip each sale. A slow,…

"(without tipping) then there is no incentive to perform above average - no lesson learned for lackluster performance."

How is it then that non-tipped employees have incentive to perform above average, or learn lessons from lackluster performance?

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#437

Post by bootlooped »

starpilot wrote: post #87
CryoLogic wrote: post #19

If anyone here has been to Japan, tipping is handled much more elegantly and with a lot more business integrity. Instead of guilt-tripping customers into tipping, businesses in Japan up their prices if they need more money. I remember once when I was in Osaka I was at a really good sushi place that I had visited several times prior. There was no tip option on the receipt (didn't see it anywhere in Japan) and there wa…

No tipping policies in the US will never work as long as tips are untaxed. Otherwise, it is a lose-lose. Diners pay more than with tipping, servers' take-home pay is reduced. That is why most restaurants that have tried no-tipping have gone back to it.

I think a big factor in restaurants trying, and failing to implement no-tipping is that society expects to do it. A good portion of people just won't accept not doing it.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#438

Post by dragonwriter »

mojomark wrote: post #353
vec wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about "rewarding exceptional service" being a lie, but I don't think it's correct to frame tipping as "burden sharing". If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. In practice, it seems like tipping serves two main functions, neither of which are great for society at large. First, it allows businesses to advertise lower prices…

> If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. That sounds true in principle, but your ignoring the commision aspect of the service. In the tipping model, a very efficient server could, say, serve 100 miffins/hr and be tipped 20% each accordingly. A fast, but rude server could serve 100 muffins, but perhaps get 0-10% tip each sale. A slow,…

> In the tipping model, a very efficient server could, say, serve 100 miffins/hr and be tipped 20% each accordingly. A fast, but rude server could serve 100 muffins, but perhaps get 0-10% tip each sale. A slow, but polite server may only serve 50 muffins, but garner 20% tip each.

Well, sure, in some world where tipping actually reflects service and politeness alone, rather than being significantly determined by gender, race, and attractiveness.

> If you simply jack the muffin price up and distribute equally among all servers, as you suggest, then there is no incentive to perform above average - no lesson learned for lackluster performance.

Sure there is, employers can monitor performance and use pay incentives (and punitive disincentives, including termination.)

Employers of workers in customer service jobs in industries that aren't typically tipped do this (and even in tipped industries, they do some monitoring and at least the negative incentives.)

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#439

Post by wetpaws »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #426
wetpaws wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not stiffing, the price is written on a check, so what you probably mean is "economic transaction". Paying waiters low on the other hand is stiffing.

That's not how all the players view it. Like it or not just because you feel justified in something doesn't mean that others will.

When you buy products on Amazon, do you look for more expensive or less expensive listings?

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#440

Post by noncoml »

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

> US tipping is not complicated

Ehmm, yeah it is. Other than the very well established rules for dinning in a restaurant, where one is expected to leave a tip of around 20%, all other situations are fuzzy.

Look at the replies in this thread. Everybody has their own rules about when, where and how much to tip.

I get your point, and agree, that it not really about rewarding exceptional service, but this doesn't make it less complicated.

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