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Apple deprecates Java

developer.apple.com

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Re: Apple deprecates Java

#161

Post by lkrubner »

It's a smart move from Apple's point of view. Why should Apple work to support Flash or Java or any platform that is owned by someone else? Why not shift the burden of maintenance, and dealing with bugs, onto those who own the platform? And why not open the door to future Apple products that might compete in the same space?

Besides all that, this moves suggests a confidence that was unimaginable 10 or more years ago. Apple is no longer desperate for market share, the way it was in 1997.

All the same, it makes me sad. I like the JVM. I do not like Java itself, but I like Groovy and I have started to like Clojure.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#162

Post by Naga »

krelian wrote: post #14
martey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not done Java development on OS X, but doesn't this mean that OS X 10.7 would not ship with a Java runtime? Wouldn't this have a negative effect on the ease of packaging and distributing Java programs on the platform?

Was Java that big on the Mac? Neither Windows nor most Linux distros ship with a Java runtime.

Windows and Linux don't ship with Java because they depend on Sun to produce the runtime. Apple produces it for OS X.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#163

Post by alanh »

Given that they are deprecating their own Java runtime and that the major differentiation of said runtime from others is the much better approximation of the Mac UI in Java apps, and given that this deprecation is coming ~9 months ahead of OS X 10.7 Lion, I’m going to guess they are finally freshening up the OS X look & feel and don’t want to spend time keeping their JVM in lockstep.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#164

Post by stcredzero »

JeremyBanks wrote: post #130
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An outright ban does indeed seem remote, but if they start to tie software installation/update/maintainance on the Mac to the Mac AppStore and ban Java apps from the AppStore, the effect on end users' ability to use Java applications is tantamount to a ban.

I hadn't thought of this in light of the App Store announcement, but apparently it's essential to do so. From the review guidelines: - Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected That's interesting.

I wonder if Apple is planning a "superior platform" strategy? If they can move to an App Store being the norm for Mac users and solve lots of deeply ingrained security and compatibility problems in the process, Microsoft/Windows is going to have quite a hard time following. The record for Apple accomplishing big architectural shifts with minimal pain (OS X, PowerPC -> x86) is much better than for Microsoft. (Vista) It would be like a lightly-armed force luring heavily equipped force into boggy ground, where the latter gets stuck in the mud while the former only gets slowed down.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#165

Post by lkrubner »

lkrubner wrote: post #161

It's a smart move from Apple's point of view. Why should Apple work to support Flash or Java or any platform that is owned by someone else? Why not shift the burden of maintenance, and dealing with bugs, onto those who own the platform? And why not open the door to future Apple products that might compete in the same space? Besides all that, this moves suggests a confidence that was unimaginable 10 or more years ago.…

Why was this downvoted?

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#166

Post by riffraff »

stcredzero wrote: post #159
riffraff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

code I wrote myself :) First one I think of (cause I redid it today, in ruby :) is: you need to keep a list of lines you already processed in a large log analysis. I'd just use a Set (which is a hash underneath) and get done, although I'd have saved a bunch of overhead (memory allocations, gc pressure) using a bloom filter.

Examples where the "extra overhead" caused an actual problem?

the one I just wrote you about

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#167

Post by stcredzero »

dgabriel wrote: post #118
coliveira wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm more worried about development of server stuff becoming more painful, particularly as Clojure, my favourite language, is (currently) JVM-based That is what the clojure guys get for investing in a dead platform. Java as a language was dying. The sun-oracle deal means that the Java platform is also dead for open source.

Java seems to have been dying for quite a long time, if you believe the hype. I think I saw the first "Java is Dead," headline in 2002. Frankly, I doubt the language is taking a dirt nap any time soon.

Any language that has some measure of 'good' is like a well loved comic book character. There may be reports of death, but if the character is well loved, there will be some means of bringing the thing back.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#168

Post by varikin »

bnastic wrote: post #123
masklinn wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, OSX's X11 is utterly dreadful.

Be it as it may, but xterm/X11 still kills Terminal.app in text rendering speed. Also, MacVim is, on my Mac at least, visibly slower in text rendering than the naked vim under xterm.

Text rendering speed? I type a letter Terminal, it appears. What are you doing that text rendering speed matters?

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#169

Post by stcredzero »

riffraff wrote: post #166
stcredzero wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples where the "extra overhead" caused an actual problem?

the one I just wrote you about

What problem did that specific bit of GC pressure cause you? (I'm doing "5 whys" in reverse. Otherwise known as "The Socratic Method.")

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#170

Post by biafra »

funkdobiest wrote: post #112
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #31

This could be good news for anyone who uses a Mac to work with Java. There could finally be a JDK for OS X that doesn't lag years behind official Java releases. On the other hand, the margin between Apple not supporting something and Apple banning something is incredibly narrow. Steve Jobs doesn't seem to understand the difference between choice and fragmentation very well.

I agree. As owner of some older Macs and trying to run a Java app written in Java 6 was a serious pain to get newer version of Java on a slightly older OS (10.4) Hopefully Oracle will pick up the ball with an easy installer for the Mac so we can install newer JRE's on most versions of OS X.

Oracle does not care about Java on the Mac. I think Apple should care. They will loose customers (including me) when there is no decent Java on the Mac. Server side Java won't be a problem. But all the good Java IDEs (Eclipse, Netbeans and Intellij) are written in Java and need a decent Windowing System. X11 on the Mac is not that.

The App Store announcement makes it clear that its only a question of time when Apple will close the MacOS-platform the same way they did with iOS.

This makes me really sad. I suspect I will have to switch to Linux then.

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