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The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

nytimes.com

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Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#181

Post by stretchwithme »

stouset wrote: post #16
stretchwithme wrote: post #13

Training is great but making it impossible is better. Blind spot detection systems need to evolve the ability to keep the door closed when something is rapidly approaching a door.

And then that technology needs more technology to ensure that it doesn’t accidentally disallow egress in an emergency, or misfire due to a bad sensor and keep the door permanently shut.

Toyota's safety system has some detection of cyclists in front of a vehicle. I just asked them on FB if there are any plans to implement anything to help keep passing cyclists safe.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#182

Post by mook »

gpm wrote: post #176
mook wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an occasional driver (I take the transit more), yes please take up the whole lane; is safer for both sides. If I find you too slow I can overtake you when safe (either in a different lane or in the opposing lane when safe). Essentially, treat you like a slow moving farm vehicle. However, please do not lane split even when it's legal to do so. I can't see out the far side of the vehicle, so you're basically somewhe…

Switching to lane splitting at red lights isn't about tolerating you being slow to accelerate. Cars usually accelerate much faster than cyclists. It can appear the other way because I'm watching for the light to switch much more carefully - so I can make sure the car to my left will see me before right turning. It's generally about letting people behind me get in front of me. Once I pull over to the side though I nee…

What usually ends catching my attention is bikes filtering to the front, starting faster after the red light (possibly because they're watching the light closer), and getting ahead of the cars in the lane. Then once they're ahead, switch to the middle of the lane and blocking all the cars from going faster.

Basically, the complete opposite of letting cars behind get ahead.

As for left turns: that car behind you (when you take up the whole lane) is your shield; the opposing car doing a left turn can't go because that other car will T-bone them. When driving, there are few enough bikes that having to look for two lanes (even though only one is marked) is the unexpected thing, so I'm actually _less_ likely to see you. If you're blocking the car behind you, I'd actually look for you to figure out why the car is so far back.

The bikes accelerating faster thing is the excuse I've heard before for the bikes filtering at the red light; apologies if that's incorrect.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#183

Post by mmcnl »

agumonkey wrote: post #64
jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

Cultural importance too. When so many people you may know are bikers, including you, you might empathize a lot more with them rather than see them as anonymous frail annoyances to pass.

People in The Netherlands also don't identify as "bikers". They use bicycles yes, but that doesn't make them a biker. Would people in the US who drive a car identify themselves as "car drivers"? Or people who walk to work as "walkers"? I don't think that's a thing.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#184

Post by gpm »

mook wrote: post #182
gpm wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switching to lane splitting at red lights isn't about tolerating you being slow to accelerate. Cars usually accelerate much faster than cyclists. It can appear the other way because I'm watching for the light to switch much more carefully - so I can make sure the car to my left will see me before right turning. It's generally about letting people behind me get in front of me. Once I pull over to the side though I nee…

What usually ends catching my attention is bikes filtering to the front, starting faster after the red light (possibly because they're watching the light closer), and getting ahead of the cars in the lane. Then once they're ahead, switch to the middle of the lane and blocking all the cars from going faster. Basically, the complete opposite of letting cars behind get ahead. As for left turns: that car behind you (when…

I certainly don't accelerate faster than the average car. I've heard other cyclists claim to and I basically just assume they are mistaken (apart from maybe some tiny subset of cyclists who race)...

Filtering on the right to pass and then immediately taking the lane for an extended period of time is certainly rude, and would piss me off as well. It's not something I've seen or would do myself but I can easily believe there are cyclists doing it.

The trick with the whole 'car as a shield thing' is I'm assuming you won't see me, but if I pass through the intersection with a car traveling in the same direction to my left it doesn't matter, you literally couldn't hit me short of shoving that car into me. The phrase I've heard for this sort of stuff is riding as if you were invisible. You're right that a car behind me is almost as good, but that assumes that I'm not the last person in the line.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#185

Post by Gibbon1 »

wott wrote: post #156
Gibbon1 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similar thing near where I live. They took out a lane, put in a turn median turn lane and a bike lane. And kept the on street parking. When it would have been much safer to just get rid of the on street parking. https://goo.gl/maps/736bR7HMats Edit: When I was in Taipei years ago they had dedicated lanes and over passes for Scooters. My thought is relatively roads for scooters and bicycles are really cheap. Another…

> They took out a lane, put in a turn median turn lane and a bike lane. > https://goo.gl/maps/736bR7HMats It is unrelated to the original subject, but how does this "median turn lane" work? For me, the marking means that you can get out of that lane, but not into it in the first place... To get into that lane, you have to cross a continuous line from your side, which is not supposed to happen (in the rules I know at…

It's a turn lane, you enter it from the left (either direction) and then can sit there until it's safe to turn into a driveway.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#186

Post by mcv »

7952 wrote: post #121
mcv wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of brakes do you have? I've got the feeling that aggressive brakes on your front wheel make it more likely for you to go over the handlebars. I've also been cut off once by a car who didn't see me while I was going very fast, but while I braked, I also made a flat turn into the street the car was turning into, and that saved my from a collision.

That is a bit of a misconception. Your front brake is much more effective at stopping the bike than the rear. People go over the handlebars because they are not gripping well enough. They are not used to the force. With a bit of practice you will never go over the handlebars with the front brake. The rear brake is much more likely to cause a fall. When you apply the brake the bike tips forward and the rear wheel rise…

If your braking is tipping the bike forward and lifting your rear wheel up, aren't you already in the process of going over your handlebars? In any case, I've never had this problem with my back-pedal brake, which brakes only the rear wheel.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#187

Post by mcv »

mclehman wrote: post #120
mcv wrote: post #109

Does anyone else have the problem that nytimes.com articles remove themselves after loading? I can see the content for about a second, and then it vanishes. Probably related to my browser settings, but this is the only site that does it.

I do as well, but only when using a browser embedded in my HN app (Materialistic). It's persisted during my Chrome -> Brave transition, so I'll be giving Firefox a try to see if that makes a difference.

I've googled a bit and found more people who had this problem with Chrome. Sadly their solution (anonymous mode) doesn't fix the problem for me.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#188

Post by mcv »

mettamage wrote: post #162
Vinnl wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite sure that the primary factor for safety in the Netherlands is the excellent infrastructure. Separate bike lanes, crossings that take into account viewing angles, etc. - cyclist safety is so ingrained in road design here, and it directly affects how safe it is to cycle, even when you're a lone cyclist. The law is probably a second large factor, and only then do I think the number of cyclists comes into play.…

From personal experience I agree. Let me tell you HN folks a small story. There are a few parts in Amsterdam that I feel that are inherently unsafe. I avoid those places and cycle 100 meters extra. Let me see if I can find a Google Maps image as an example. Yes! Found it! [1] Why this place is dangerous: tram rails to get your bike wheel stuck in on the left. Cars on the right. Especially on a rainy day with lots of…

I've been there, and during wet weather, I've once felt my rear wheel start to slip on a tram rail (fortunately I managed to compensate). I learned to take tram rails at a steeper angle, which has served me well. Never had any other trouble here, but yes, I watch the car doors. Or I ride between the tram rails, because there's no way cars will be going very fast here.

Still, it's clearly a place that lacks the separate bike lanes that are so common elsewhere.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#189

Post by mcv »

atoav wrote: post #174
Vinnl wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite sure that the primary factor for safety in the Netherlands is the excellent infrastructure. Separate bike lanes, crossings that take into account viewing angles, etc. - cyclist safety is so ingrained in road design here, and it directly affects how safe it is to cycle, even when you're a lone cyclist. The law is probably a second large factor, and only then do I think the number of cyclists comes into play.…

As somebody who cycled in nearly 15 different nations inside and outside of Europe, cycling in the Netherlands is a joy. For me it was mainly three factors: 1. Infrastructure: wide enough seperated lanes without potholes in a bright color, making it clear also to pedestrians. Most of the time very clear visibility on crossroads. 2. Motorized traffic is most of the time far less stressed than in other parts of europe…

  > Other cyclists seem to be more educated about traffic rules than in other places where you often only have two types: the suicidal and the overly cautionous, barly going faster than a pedestrian
We also have those types (the overly cautious ones are generally tourists, often in large groups), but we have a couple of other types to balance things out.

Worst examples of suicidal: a cyclist running a red light on the most dangerous intersection of the city while on the phone and not remotely paying attention to traffic. Or parents teaching their young kids to lane-split against motorised traffic.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#190

Post by mcv »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #86
jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

Just spending enough time on a bike or motorbike will change the way you drive. Not only do you become aware of blind spots but you become a little paranoid about them. You might also learn that hitting a large metal box hurts. That transfers when the many bikers are driving a car into doing more, and better checks than a typical driver without two wheel experience.

This also works the other way around. Once I got my driver's license, I understood the perspective of motorists better, and adjusted my cycling accordingly.
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