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The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

nytimes.com

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Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#161

Post by mettamage »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

> I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them.

I am a Dutchie who has been mostly living in a village for most of his life. I visited most big cities in The Netherlands quite frequently, once every month, (especially Amsterdam) with people (parents when I was young, friends when I got older). So when I moved to Amsterdam I thought that I was used to it.

I was wrong. I got attacked by bikes left, right and center at the moments where I was unsuspecting. Those moments were few and far in between, but that is what made it so dangerous. I had enough exposure to Dutch cyclists / cycling myself to do it 98% of the time. And in the remaining 2% I got attacked.

I've learned and fortunately didn't have to pay the price.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#162

Post by mettamage »

Vinnl wrote: post #159
jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

I'm quite sure that the primary factor for safety in the Netherlands is the excellent infrastructure. Separate bike lanes, crossings that take into account viewing angles, etc. - cyclist safety is so ingrained in road design here, and it directly affects how safe it is to cycle, even when you're a lone cyclist. The law is probably a second large factor, and only then do I think the number of cyclists comes into play.…

From personal experience I agree. Let me tell you HN folks a small story. There are a few parts in Amsterdam that I feel that are inherently unsafe. I avoid those places and cycle 100 meters extra. Let me see if I can find a Google Maps image as an example.

Yes! Found it! [1]

Why this place is dangerous: tram rails to get your bike wheel stuck in on the left. Cars on the right. Especially on a rainy day with lots of traffic this place is scary. It's quite easy to get stuck in a tram rail with cars behind you. The lane that cyclists seem to cycle in is mostly between the first tram rail and the cars on the right (see [2] for a better perspective of it). Whenever I cycle this small part, I always hope that every parked driver knows the Dutch reach. Amsterdam is a multicultural city with expats, so I'm always a bit weary whenever I forgot to choose the safer option. Up until now, they fortunately all did [3].

[1] https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.3516556,4.8493917,3a,75y,288....

[2] https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.3516258,4.8488613,3a,75y,285....

[3] It took me a long time to switch from this unsafe small part of Amsterdam to a safer alternative.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#163

Post by jerven »

Viker wrote: post #155
jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

But Norway is a very extreme case. By law the bikers do not carry any responsibilities, which in term is carried over completely on the drivers. That gives bikers a false sense of security while it ruins drivers lives. Norway is inherintley a terrible country for biking. There are 8 months of terrible weather, 3 of those months are pitch black night with virtually no sunlight. The infrastructure for biking is terribl…

I wonder if it is just because of the fact that Norway has mountains. The risk of going to fast downhill, plus gravel is an issue without any risks of cars.

When living in Norway I remember that this was an issue even on a place where there was a separated cycle path. Which why going down hill to the train station it was with helmet and back up it was without.

When living in the Netherlands, I never felt that the road itself was dangerous like it was in Norway.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#164

Post by ambentzen »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #141
agumonkey wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural importance too. When so many people you may know are bikers, including you, you might empathize a lot more with them rather than see them as anonymous frail annoyances to pass.

This is a good point. When I turn right I always check my right mirror. This is not something I was specifically taught, this is something I do because I also bike a lot and am often on the bike lane on the right. (yes, the design of the lens is such that this should not be an issue but a lot of cyclists will still stupidly cross the crosding instead of following the U shaped path)

You where NOT taught to check that you are not turning into/across some one? WTH?

When doing a maneuver you check your mirror AND turn your head. If you are not taught this I shudder to think what else where left out of your so-called drivers education.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#165

Post by Rizz »

pasta wrote: post #116
jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

This and the law: cars are always to blame. Even in The Netherlands this law was needed to keep bikers safe. And when introduced even the Dutch made fun of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivY06w83fKU Edit: if you want to look this up, the law is called: "Artikel 185 Wegenverkeerswet". It's very broad and is not only to protect cyclists. I think this law is more about making drivers of motor vehicles more responsibl…

No, cars aren't too blame, the car owner is only liable for damage, and why does that law exist? Because cars have mandatory liability insurance, bicycles and pedestrians do not. It's not about making drivers more responsible, although it helps most Dutch don't understand what liability means, it's too make sure there is always money to pay for damage, especially if the damage is severe.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#166

Post by watwut »

buschkowitz wrote: post #145
Xylakant wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wearing a helmet in a steel cage seems kind of redundant. All kinds of race car drivers were helmets - and their steel cages are much much more sturdy than the ones that commuters have. Statistics als indicate that many car drivers suffer head injuries. So by all available evidence, wearing a helmet in a car is not redundant. Still, people don’t do it - unless they engage in particularly dangerous activities. The p…

So now you are comparing race car drivers to the typical commuter driver, apples to apples. You can cite all the evidence you want. When shit hits the fan and you don't have protection, you can only wish for not regretting your decisions. For me this discussion is done. I have this particular perception, you have yours. We are both happy with it. Stay safe.

Had commuter cycling without helmet was really so dangerous as you claim, there would be way more head injuries of commuter cyclists. As is, they are quite rare.

I understand fear of someone who actually was in one, but please stop forcing your fear on everybody else. Just because you are afraid does not mean not being afraid is irresponsible or any more irresponsible then not having helmet in car crash.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#167

Post by frereubu »

graeme wrote: post #100
frereubu wrote: post #94

When riding in London a few years ago I came off my bike when a car driver - who hadn't seen me - turned across the road in front of me. I slammed on my brakes, and went over the handlebars only a few inches before hitting the car. I landed on the road with my hip and my head whiplashed over into the road. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet I would undoubtedly have fractured my skull, and possible worse. Since then I'…

That's brutal. That said, you're not necessarily contradicting the OP. They were talking about cities demanding helmets via helmet laws. Whereas you (I think) are recommending individuals use helmets, and also bicycle infrastructure. OP isn't saying it's bad for an individual to wear a helmet. They're saying it's a bad requirement , because making helmets required will take marginal cyclists off the road. And fewer c…

I agree, I think they're complementary arguments. In London you need a helmet - the cycling environment demands it. In other places it sounds like that's different, and I envy people who live in those places!

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#168

Post by frereubu »

bamboozled wrote: post #97
frereubu wrote: post #94

When riding in London a few years ago I came off my bike when a car driver - who hadn't seen me - turned across the road in front of me. I slammed on my brakes, and went over the handlebars only a few inches before hitting the car. I landed on the road with my hip and my head whiplashed over into the road. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet I would undoubtedly have fractured my skull, and possible worse. Since then I'…

Sorry to hear about your accident. May I ask how fast were you going when this happened? I don't wear a helmet when commuting but I also rarely exceed 20km/h to avoid the exact kind of collision you just described. I have to say a helmet will help when going over the bars, but you could've just as easily been critically injured in other ways, such as breaking your neck, rupturing an artery etc. One thing you notice a…

I was in top gear, but at a steady cadence and not in head-down thrashing-it mode. The issue for me in London is that the road layout doesn't really invite people to look out for cyclists. The road I was on didn't have a separate cycle lane - in London you can cycle in bus lanes, which is where I was, but cars are looking out for buses rather than cyclists. The cycle lanes that do exist in London are also so narrow that when it's busy it can feel pretty dangerous to try and overtake someone slower. I'm sure the few idiot risk-takers who thrash down the middle of those lanes put quite a few people off.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#169

Post by atoav »

During my driving test (rural countryside of Austria, after 2000) not doing the "Dutch Reach" could decide about fail or pass. Now I live in a bigger city and cycle every day and I wish this was common practice.

As a cyclist you have to treat the typical motorist like an idiot with no perception of their surrounding and no knowledge of traffic rules. Sadly the same is true also for cyclists (especially with sunday-nice-weather-cyclists).

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#170

Post by frereubu »

mcv wrote: post #110
frereubu wrote: post #94

When riding in London a few years ago I came off my bike when a car driver - who hadn't seen me - turned across the road in front of me. I slammed on my brakes, and went over the handlebars only a few inches before hitting the car. I landed on the road with my hip and my head whiplashed over into the road. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet I would undoubtedly have fractured my skull, and possible worse. Since then I'…

What kind of brakes do you have? I've got the feeling that aggressive brakes on your front wheel make it more likely for you to go over the handlebars. I've also been cut off once by a car who didn't see me while I was going very fast, but while I braked, I also made a flat turn into the street the car was turning into, and that saved my from a collision.

Cantilever brakes. I have disk brakes now, but I actually feel safer with those because I feel I have more fine control somehow.
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