The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#91

Post by fjsolwmv » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 1:03 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #45

wool_gather wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article explains clearly that it is a thing in the Netherlands; it's a standard part of driver education there. > “It’s just what Dutch people do,” said Fred Wegman, professor emeritus of Traffic Safety at Delft University of Technology and the former managing director of the National Institute for Road Safety Research SWOV in the Netherlands. “All Dutch are taught it. It’s part of regular driver education.”

Here come Dutch HN commenters who never heard of it. And there are more elsewhere in the thread. The article is not accurate. It’s a perfect example of what I was talking about.

Most people don't remember the rules of the road, they just adapt to common and intuition practice over years of driving.

In the USA, many or most states have laws stating that drivers must yield to pedestrians at unmarked crosswalks (every intersection is a legal crosswalk), but most drivers don't know that "unmarked crosswalks" exist.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#92

Post by twblalock » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 1:16 AM UTC

fjsolwmv wrote: post #91

twblalock wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here come Dutch HN commenters who never heard of it. And there are more elsewhere in the thread. The article is not accurate. It’s a perfect example of what I was talking about.

Most people don't remember the rules of the road, they just adapt to common and intuition practice over years of driving. In the USA, many or most states have laws stating that drivers must yield to pedestrians at unmarked crosswalks (every intersection is a legal crosswalk), but most drivers don't know that "unmarked crosswalks" exist.

I think the Dutch people posting here know whether or not they reach across their body and open their driver-side door with their right hand. So I believe them when they say the article is wrong.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#93

Post by ant512 » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 1:37 AM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #78

jariz wrote: post #69

Every time a article like this is posted I'm just flabbergasted at the fact that 'looking behind you before actually opening a door' is such a foreign concept to Americans.

My impression is that driving education in the US is rather lacking overall, though it's of course not federalized, so there are probably fifty shades of deficiency. (That being said many driving schools here suck as well, though that's mostly a money drain for the driving students; 40 % or so failure rate in the practical exam).

I've got a British driving license and an American driving license. The British driving license was hard work. The American driving license involved little more than proving I could make the car go forwards and that I had a pulse.

There's really a 40% failure rate? That's insane given how easy it is to pass the test.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#94

Post by frereubu » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 1:44 AM UTC

When riding in London a few years ago I came off my bike when a car driver - who hadn't seen me - turned across the road in front of me. I slammed on my brakes, and went over the handlebars only a few inches before hitting the car. I landed on the road with my hip and my head whiplashed over into the road. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet I would undoubtedly have fractured my skull, and possible worse. Since then I've been a vocal proponent of helmets - in London - because this accident was nothing to do with my riding. I had a front light on, a reflective vest and light-coloured clothing.

The real issue for me is cycling infrastructure. London is getting sort-of better. There are cycle "superhighways", but they're quite narrow and have their fair share of idiot cyclists who ride very fast and loose, and make it dangerous for other cyclists. If there was better infrastructure there might be a critical mass of more sedate cyclists who set the tone for cycling in general, so everyone takes account of that new paradigm. Until that happens, I don't think there's a good safe way of cycling in somewhere like London without a helmet.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#95

Post by maxxxxx » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 1:45 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

Same in Munich. When you drive a car you know you have to look for bikes when you turn because there are so many. Now that I am in California there are so few pedestrians and bikers that I barely look anymore.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#96

Post by your-nanny » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #84

sologoub wrote: post #29

Relying on an uncomfortable behavior change is one option, but as many have noted - really a “reach”. Why don’t we instead take the experience of cities that instead of trying to integrate cars and cyclists, integrated cyclists and pedestrians? Physics are more on your side here - a lot closer weight and size of objects. Possibly even closer speed differential. On a recent trip to Munich, the clear markings and cycli…

As a bike commuter in a city environment, I'd rather be near cars than mix with pedestrians. Cars are more predictable, and move at closer speeds through downtown. Out of congested areas, where cars are going much faster than me, I like being farther away. At times, I do ride on the sidewalk because of road design or convenience, and it requires a much slower pace if there are pedestrians nearby.

not German but have ridden in Bremen and Hamburg. the system works. But leisure cyclists in their spandex and too expensive bikes who like to go fast to "get their cardio" would probably hate it.

pedestrians and cyclists have separate lanes on the sidewalk, and pity the fool who crosses over to the wrong one!

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#97

Post by bamboozled » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 1:57 AM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #94

When riding in London a few years ago I came off my bike when a car driver - who hadn't seen me - turned across the road in front of me. I slammed on my brakes, and went over the handlebars only a few inches before hitting the car. I landed on the road with my hip and my head whiplashed over into the road. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet I would undoubtedly have fractured my skull, and possible worse. Since then I'…

Sorry to hear about your accident. May I ask how fast were you going when this happened?

I don't wear a helmet when commuting but I also rarely exceed 20km/h to avoid the exact kind of collision you just described. I have to say a helmet will help when going over the bars, but you could've just as easily been critically injured in other ways, such as breaking your neck, rupturing an artery etc.

One thing you notice about cyclists and cars in Amsterdam is that everyone goes quite slowly and with a fairly high level of awareness.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#98

Post by innomatics » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:09 AM UTC

It would be wonderful if car makers could position the interior door latches to make this the natural way to open the door. E.g. just under the window near the pillar.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#99

Post by charliesome » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #65

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

I think there's some direction of causation issues here. The Netherlands has invested in road design that makes cycling safer; Therefore -> A) more people ride bikes. B) Less people wear helmets. A and B are correlated, but this is due to a 3rd external cause. They do not cause each other.

There's definitely a causative relationship between A and B, although it's not the only factor (of course, safer road design is probably a more significant factor)

When mandatory helmet laws were introduced across Australia we saw a sharp drop off in casual cycling rates which we're only recovering from now. If we never suffered that drop, perhaps we'd have a stronger cycling culture today.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#100

Post by graeme » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:36 AM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #94

When riding in London a few years ago I came off my bike when a car driver - who hadn't seen me - turned across the road in front of me. I slammed on my brakes, and went over the handlebars only a few inches before hitting the car. I landed on the road with my hip and my head whiplashed over into the road. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet I would undoubtedly have fractured my skull, and possible worse. Since then I'…

That's brutal. That said, you're not necessarily contradicting the OP. They were talking about cities demanding helmets via helmet laws.

Whereas you (I think) are recommending individuals use helmets, and also bicycle infrastructure.

OP isn't saying it's bad for an individual to wear a helmet. They're saying it's a bad requirement, because making helmets required will take marginal cyclists off the road. And fewer cyclists leads to more accidents like the ones you had, because drivers aren't used to cyclists.