The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#111

Post by Angostura » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 5:39 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #35

emptybits wrote: post #14

The Dutch Reach is a reach to ask for, IMO. I write this as a cyclist living in Vancouver (one city named in the article) who has been doored and nearly doored. IME, shoulder checks while actually driving seem to be a dying art form. So asking for a while-parked check like the Dutch Reach ... seems optimistic. But no harm in trying. The illustration is great. I applaud all efforts to make this technique more known. F…

As a cyclist - just don't ride in reach of car doors. If that means taking the lane and blocking cars, do so. At any speed trying to figure out whether or not someone is in it in time to slow down is impossible. Even if you slow down to a crawl as you pass someone sitting in the car you are still relying on them not opening it into your side. If you are right beside the cars you have no space whatsoever to swerve, be…

Not always possible. In London, the biggest risk of getting doored seems to occur where there is stationary traffic and a kerb-side cycle lane. It’s not uncommon for passengers to get out on the kerb side, opening the door without looking

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#112

Post by Angostura » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 5:45 AM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #71

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it also depends on whether you have auto-folding mirrors. (I was taught to check my rear-view mirror before opening the door. That doesn't work in my new car with folding mirrors; so now I sometimes use the dutch reach, even though I was never taught it back in the day)

I only know the auto-folding kind that folds in after you lock the car... usually by holding the lock button or pressing it twice quickly.

Sadly, my Seat Alhambra, 2016 has no such functionality. Almost unbelievably

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#113

Post by bastijn » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 5:51 AM UTC

In NL this is not common either. This is not what keeps us safe. We use the mirror like any other country (but we do not forget). This topic has reached FP before. Original article and comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12674533

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#114

Post by microtonal » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:05 AM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #76

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netherlands driving instruction back in the day taught to take the cycling lane[1] for turning after first mirror-mirror-shoulder checking to be sure it's free. Reasoning is indeed to prevent a right hook collision after you thought you'd already checked. [1] Note that busier roads tend to have cycling traffic completely separated onto a separate cycling path. But there's still roads with cycling lanes or shared with…

In Germany dedicated bike lanes have a solid line, so you're not allowed to cross into them for turning. Radschutzstreifen (translation n/a, like a bike lane, but it has a dashed line and is usually put on roads as an afterthought, so it's usually too narrow for larger vehicles to pass each other without using the Radschutzstreifen; it's a great contortion, really) on the other hand have a dashed line and generally i…

Radschutzstreifen (translation n/a, like a bike lane, but it has a dashed line and is usually put on roads as an afterthought, so it's usually too narrow for larger vehicles to pass each other without using the Radschutzstreifen

My experience from living five years in Germany and commuting to work by bike daily is that there are always some smaller vehicles that cross the dashed line. Especially when they in line for a traffic light. This often makes bike lines pretty much unusable (I often had to switch to the pavement to continue cycling, behavior that I copied from German cyclists).

I have always wondered whether drivers simply don't care or don't want cyclists to overtake them when they are waiting in traffic.

Another thing that I noticed in Germany is that most car drivers are either too cautious or extremely reckless in their attitude to cyclists. The cautious drivers will do things like drive behind you for long times, even though there is plenty of time/space to overtake. The reckless drivers will cut you off even if you have the right-of-way. The problem with both overly cautious and reckless drivers is that they are very unpredictable.

I am now back in The Netherlands and I am surprised how friendly cars are to cyclists (you only notice when you've been abroad for a while). The biggest danger are other cyclists ;).

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#115

Post by microtonal » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:08 AM UTC

bastijn wrote: post #113

In NL this is not common either. This is not what keeps us safe. We use the mirror like any other country (but we do not forget). This topic has reached FP before. Original article and comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12674533

We use the mirror like any other country (but we do not forget).

Except that passengers in the back seats do not have mirrors. Although I never learned the Dutch Reach (but I don't have a driver's license), my dad always warned us as a kid that we should check for cyclists before opening the door.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#116

Post by pasta » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:13 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

This and the law: cars are always to blame.

Even in The Netherlands this law was needed to keep bikers safe.

And when introduced even the Dutch made fun of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivY06w83fKU

Edit: if you want to look this up, the law is called: "Artikel 185 Wegenverkeerswet".

It's very broad and is not only to protect cyclists. I think this law is more about making drivers of motor vehicles more responsible.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#117

Post by skrebbel » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:14 AM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #82

twblalock wrote: post #25

This "Dutch reach" thing is an example of a phenomenon I've seen several times before. People who promote a practice seem to think their argument will be more persuasive if the practice came from an admired foreign country, yet the people who live in that country have never heard of it and/or do not commonly do it. In this case it's the Dutch, but I've seen all kinds of similar nonsense about Japan.

The Dutch just call it "The Reach". It's like in space, how they don't call it a "Space Bathroom", it's just a "Bathroom".

Ehh, no we don't. We don't do it and we don't call it anything.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#118

Post by ianamartin » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #94

When riding in London a few years ago I came off my bike when a car driver - who hadn't seen me - turned across the road in front of me. I slammed on my brakes, and went over the handlebars only a few inches before hitting the car. I landed on the road with my hip and my head whiplashed over into the road. If I hadn't been wearing a helmet I would undoubtedly have fractured my skull, and possible worse. Since then I'…

I used to bike from Brooklyn to my job in Manhattan. The worst part of the trip was in Brooklyn where there are quite a lot of bike lanes and the Manhattan bridge, which has a dedicated bike lane over the bridge.

For one thing, double parking is a thing all over the city. So you are constantly having to swing out back into traffic from the bike lane because cars are in the lane. For the other thing, bike lanes--where they do exist--are painted right next to the street parking, so you are constantly having to watch out for people getting out of their cars and opening a door right into you. Also causing you to have to swerve into traffic when that happens.

The bike lane over the bridge is insane. Particularly on the downward side of the bridge where cyclists just let momentum take them and fly as fast as they can.

The only time I've ever felt safe on a bike is in Manhattan where the traffic is so bad, no one can ever move fast enough to hurt anyone. In the 6 months or so I did that, I ended up in 8 very close calls then ended up with me laid out on the street in traffic trying to dodge something or someone or almost hit by someone else on a bicycle, I gave it up and went back to taking the subway, where I could read and be productive on the way to work instead of constantly worrying about getting smacked.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#119

Post by pieterr » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:24 AM UTC

pasta wrote: post #116

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

This and the law: cars are always to blame. Even in The Netherlands this law was needed to keep bikers safe. And when introduced even the Dutch made fun of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivY06w83fKU Edit: if you want to look this up, the law is called: "Artikel 185 Wegenverkeerswet". It's very broad and is not only to protect cyclists. I think this law is more about making drivers of motor vehicles more responsibl…

Great video from “Koot en Bie”! Thanks for bringing up old memories.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#120

Post by mclehman » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 6:31 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #109

Does anyone else have the problem that nytimes.com articles remove themselves after loading? I can see the content for about a second, and then it vanishes. Probably related to my browser settings, but this is the only site that does it.

I do as well, but only when using a browser embedded in my HN app (Materialistic). It's persisted during my Chrome -> Brave transition, so I'll be giving Firefox a try to see if that makes a difference.