The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#21

Post by twblalock » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

themodelplumber wrote: post #20

rgj wrote: post #19

I'm Dutch. I've never heard of this, nor has anybody I asked about this. I've never even seen someone in the driver's seat use their right hand to open the door. Dooring is not an issue here either since Dutch cyclists tend to anticipate very well. What we do have here in the Netherlands are bike lanes, so in a lot of places the bikes pass the parked/stopping cars on the right hand side.

There are a lot of idioms in U.S. English which contain the word "dutch" but which are not recognizable to actual Dutch people. Some of these will come from e.g. stereotyped interactions with the Pennsylvania Dutch, etc.

This particular "dutch reach" idiom is not related to the Pennsylvania Dutch in any way.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#22

Post by rgj » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

themodelplumber wrote: post #20

rgj wrote: post #19

I'm Dutch. I've never heard of this, nor has anybody I asked about this. I've never even seen someone in the driver's seat use their right hand to open the door. Dooring is not an issue here either since Dutch cyclists tend to anticipate very well. What we do have here in the Netherlands are bike lanes, so in a lot of places the bikes pass the parked/stopping cars on the right hand side.

There are a lot of idioms in U.S. English which contain the word "dutch" but which are not recognizable to actual Dutch people. Some of these will come from e.g. stereotyped interactions with the Pennsylvania Dutch, etc.

The article states

"There is no name in Dutch for this technique — it’s just second nature to Dutch drivers, and has been for years. It has been deeply ingrained in the country’s culture.

“It’s just what Dutch people do,” said Fred Wegman, professor emeritus of Traffic Safety at Delft University of Technology and the former managing director of the National Institute for Road Safety Research SWOV in the Netherlands. “All Dutch are taught it. It’s part of regular driver education.” "

which is simply not true.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#23

Post by Gibbon1 » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

emptybits wrote: post #14

The Dutch Reach is a reach to ask for, IMO. I write this as a cyclist living in Vancouver (one city named in the article) who has been doored and nearly doored. IME, shoulder checks while actually driving seem to be a dying art form. So asking for a while-parked check like the Dutch Reach ... seems optimistic. But no harm in trying. The illustration is great. I applaud all efforts to make this technique more known. F…

A similar thing near where I live. They took out a lane, put in a turn median turn lane and a bike lane. And kept the on street parking. When it would have been much safer to just get rid of the on street parking.

https://goo.gl/maps/736bR7HMats

Edit: When I was in Taipei years ago they had dedicated lanes and over passes for Scooters. My thought is relatively roads for scooters and bicycles are really cheap. Another memory is when they built the highway 85 extension in the 90's bicyclists started using it in large numbers before it was open to traffic. That leaves me with the impression that the biggest impediment to getting people to ride bicycles is having to mix it up with auto traffic.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#24

Post by Symbiote » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #21

themodelplumber wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of idioms in U.S. English which contain the word "dutch" but which are not recognizable to actual Dutch people. Some of these will come from e.g. stereotyped interactions with the Pennsylvania Dutch, etc.

This particular "dutch reach" idiom is not related to the Pennsylvania Dutch in any way.

None of the "Dutch" idioms will be from Pennsylvania Dutch, they all come from being the neighbour country to England.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#25

Post by twblalock » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

This "Dutch reach" thing is an example of a phenomenon I've seen several times before.

People who promote a practice seem to think their argument will be more persuasive if the practice came from an admired foreign country, yet the people who live in that country have never heard of it and/or do not commonly do it.

In this case it's the Dutch, but I've seen all kinds of similar nonsense about Japan.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#26

Post by Symbiote » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #8

dep_b wrote: post #4

I'm always using the Dutch Mirror which is that shiny reflective thing attached to the driver's door which I cleverly abuse to see if something is coming from behind before I get out of the car. I've been testing it a lot in The Netherlands. Nobody died so far so it must work but YMMV. -- edit: I have a Dutch driver's license and definitely would've known about it.

You need to also check the "blind spot" (1) which is big enough to lose a truck in let alone a cyclist. 1 - https://duckduckgo.com/?q=car+blind+spots&t=brave&ia=images&...

Is this novel enough that you felt you needed to give a link?!?!

It was literally the first thing my driving instructor spoke about, after I'd got in the driver's seat, and something the examiner was particularly careful to ensure was being checked.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#27

Post by laurentl » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #24

twblalock wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular "dutch reach" idiom is not related to the Pennsylvania Dutch in any way.

None of the "Dutch" idioms will be from Pennsylvania Dutch, they all come from being the neighbour country to England.

Ireland?

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#28

Post by chki » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

rgj wrote: post #19

I'm Dutch. I've never heard of this, nor has anybody I asked about this. I've never even seen someone in the driver's seat use their right hand to open the door. Dooring is not an issue here either since Dutch cyclists tend to anticipate very well. What we do have here in the Netherlands are bike lanes, so in a lot of places the bikes pass the parked/stopping cars on the right hand side.

>Dooring is not an issue here either since Dutch cyclists tend to anticipate very well.

Two points to this: Obviously (and you probably implied this but I want to make it clear:) it is first and foremost the duty of the car driver opening a door to make sure that there is nobody endangered.

Secondly: It is not always possible to anticipate car doors opening, even if you are following traffic very carefully. People sit in their cars for prolonged times without the engines on. It only takes one bad situation to kill a person. Therefore in my opinion all reasonable measures should be taken, including teaching people to open their car doors with the opposing hand. (Even better, as you mentioned: separate different kinds of traffic)

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#29

Post by sologoub » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

Relying on an uncomfortable behavior change is one option, but as many have noted - really a “reach”.

Why don’t we instead take the experience of cities that instead of trying to integrate cars and cyclists, integrated cyclists and pedestrians? Physics are more on your side here - a lot closer weight and size of objects. Possibly even closer speed differential.

On a recent trip to Munich, the clear markings and cyclists on a protected wide sidewalk made a lot more sense. With cars and bikes sharing the narrow city roads, doorings are only one problem. Even side view mirrors can be a hazzard.

It’s more costly to have wider side walks, but it’s so much safer!

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#30

Post by wool_gather » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #25

This "Dutch reach" thing is an example of a phenomenon I've seen several times before. People who promote a practice seem to think their argument will be more persuasive if the practice came from an admired foreign country, yet the people who live in that country have never heard of it and/or do not commonly do it. In this case it's the Dutch, but I've seen all kinds of similar nonsense about Japan.

The article explains clearly that it is a thing in the Netherlands; it's a standard part of driver education there.

> “It’s just what Dutch people do,” said Fred Wegman, professor emeritus of Traffic Safety at Delft University of Technology and the former managing director of the National Institute for Road Safety Research SWOV in the Netherlands. “All Dutch are taught it. It’s part of regular driver education.”