The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#131

Post by rejschaap » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:30 AM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #115

bastijn wrote: post #113

In NL this is not common either. This is not what keeps us safe. We use the mirror like any other country (but we do not forget). This topic has reached FP before. Original article and comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12674533

We use the mirror like any other country (but we do not forget). Except that passengers in the back seats do not have mirrors. Although I never learned the Dutch Reach (but I don't have a driver's license), my dad always warned us as a kid that we should check for cyclists before opening the door.

The rear doors in my car can't open from the inside for the kid's safety. I always check the mirror on the passenger side and will ask my passenger to wait when necessary. My mother-in-law is notorious for throwing the door open wide without looking (often hitting parked cars). She can't be taught so I just put her on the back seat now.

I live in an area where the parking spots are on the left side of the road. I don't know how common it is for Dutch people to check the mirror for the passengers door. Maybe it just depends on your mother-in-law.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#132

Post by raarts » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:31 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #25

This "Dutch reach" thing is an example of a phenomenon I've seen several times before. People who promote a practice seem to think their argument will be more persuasive if the practice came from an admired foreign country, yet the people who live in that country have never heard of it and/or do not commonly do it. In this case it's the Dutch, but I've seen all kinds of similar nonsense about Japan.

I am Dutch. My wife is a driving instructor. She says that drivers should be taught the Dutch Reach: hold the door with your left hand, unlock and open it with your right hand, look in your mirrors and through the door opening, if it's safe open the door fully and leave the car. Walk toward the back of the car so you are facing the traffic. (When entering the car you go around the front of the car for that same reason.). But it's not true that you fail the exam if you don't follow this procedure.

She also says many instructors do not give a f*ck and skip teaching these procedures.

The Dutch people claiming it's not a thing are either older or had a sloppy driving instructor.

EDIT: in the past people were taught the: "look in the mirror and over your shoulder" method. Many older instructors still teach this.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#133

Post by danburbridge » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:48 AM UTC

pasta wrote: post #116

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

This and the law: cars are always to blame. Even in The Netherlands this law was needed to keep bikers safe. And when introduced even the Dutch made fun of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivY06w83fKU Edit: if you want to look this up, the law is called: "Artikel 185 Wegenverkeerswet". It's very broad and is not only to protect cyclists. I think this law is more about making drivers of motor vehicles more responsibl…

Cars aren't always to blame. It's just that it starts from the presumption that the car is at fault - which is the case in approx 90% of cases in the UK (although the UK doesn't have this strict-liability unfortunately)

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#134

Post by buschkowitz » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:49 AM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #129

buschkowitz wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to wear a helmet. The risk-reward ratio is highly in favor of wearing one. What is the burden of wearing one vs. having some protection in case you fly?

Do you wear helmet while driving a car? What’s the burden of wearing one vs. having some protection in case you have an accident? Car drivers are much more likely to die of head injuries than cyclists. Do you also wear a helmet while walking, especially in winter? What’s the burden of wearing one vs. having some protection in case you slip and fall? Why don’t we do that? Because while the burden is low - it’s mostly…

Wearing a helmet in a steel cage seems kind of redundant. Wearing a helmet walking at 5 km/h pace, likewise. I am wearing a helmet commuting daily, travel speed around 30 km/h. If you don't want to destroy your haircut, fair it's your choice.

Edit: To be clear, I was riding years without a helmet until a crash made me reconsider my priorities. Also, I am not in favor of mandating helmet usage on bikes.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#135

Post by danburbridge » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:49 AM UTC

charliesome wrote: post #99

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's some direction of causation issues here. The Netherlands has invested in road design that makes cycling safer; Therefore -> A) more people ride bikes. B) Less people wear helmets. A and B are correlated, but this is due to a 3rd external cause. They do not cause each other.

There's definitely a causative relationship between A and B, although it's not the only factor (of course, safer road design is probably a more significant factor) When mandatory helmet laws were introduced across Australia we saw a sharp drop off in casual cycling rates which we're only recovering from now. If we never suffered that drop, perhaps we'd have a stronger cycling culture today.

Mandatory helmets are one of the worst things that a county can do for cycling.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#136

Post by danburbridge » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:50 AM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #124

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just spending enough time on a bike or motorbike will change the way you drive. Not only do you become aware of blind spots but you become a little paranoid about them. You might also learn that hitting a large metal box hurts. That transfers when the many bikers are driving a car into doing more, and better checks than a typical driver without two wheel experience.

Anecdotal at best

Actually there are insurance companies offering discounts on car insurance to cyclists as their data shows them to be safer drivers.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#137

Post by avip » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:51 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

@200 [fatalities/year] I'm not sure it's factual to deem the Netherlands safe for bikers (yes we need to adjust for population and mileage, but it's surely not obviously safer than other places).

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#138

Post by tomglynch » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 7:53 AM UTC

ygra wrote: post #123

7952 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a bit of a misconception. Your front brake is much more effective at stopping the bike than the rear. People go over the handlebars because they are not gripping well enough. They are not used to the force. With a bit of practice you will never go over the handlebars with the front brake. The rear brake is much more likely to cause a fall. When you apply the brake the bike tips forward and the rear wheel rise…

Depending on how the bike's mass distribution looks like. If the rear isn't very heavy, braking hard on the front will flip over the bike and you. For me it's anon-issue most of the time, as I have panniers which increase the rear weight so that doesn't happen, but when I don't have them I sometimes forget to adjust braking force. Might also not be an issue for e-bikes, as those are generally heavier and probably les…

As a cyclist (I commute daily + ride recreationally offroad and race) I disagree. By keeping your weight back you can slam the front brake without flipping.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#139

Post by gaius » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 8:01 AM UTC

danburbridge wrote: post #133

pasta wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and the law: cars are always to blame. Even in The Netherlands this law was needed to keep bikers safe. And when introduced even the Dutch made fun of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivY06w83fKU Edit: if you want to look this up, the law is called: "Artikel 185 Wegenverkeerswet". It's very broad and is not only to protect cyclists. I think this law is more about making drivers of motor vehicles more responsibl…

Cars aren't always to blame. It's just that it starts from the presumption that the car is at fault - which is the case in approx 90% of cases in the UK (although the UK doesn't have this strict-liability unfortunately)

Cyclists won’t get training, take tests, get licensed, even read the Highway Code, stop at red lights, maintain their vehicles, wear any sort of protective gear or high viz... but it’s always the drivers fault if something happens to them. Apparently.

And as a pedestrian I am in far more danger from cyclists than I am from cars, such as riding illegally on the pavement, or again failing to stop at red lights when I am crossing the road

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#140

Post by pferde » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 8:12 AM UTC

dmckeon wrote: post #83

blattimwind wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules. Interesting? I don't think so. Very few and well reasoned rules apply to Autobahn: No turning around. No stopping. There are no crossings of any kind. As on all highways with more than one lane, a Rettungsgasse (emergency way) must be created as soon as traffic congests. > Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will In…

Mirror usage in the US was that of the image you reference, and only recently has started to shift. Here is a comparison of the newer (in the US) and older versions: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mir... The choice is not really between "blind spots" and "no blind spots" but between "one big blind spot on each side" and "two smaller blind spots on each side". YMMV, depending on whether you o…

> Here is a comparison of the newer (in the US) and older versions: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mir....

"Sorry, this content is not available in your region."

Wow, I didn't know HTTP allowed you to request content from two decades ago.