The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#81

Post by Kim_Bruning » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #70

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do try to stay in practice a little bit, on the off chance you ever want to drive on Dutch or German [1] highways. Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will get you hit by a truck; forgetting the left hand will get you hit by an Audi or BMW (or volvo ;-) ). Both are painful! [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules.

> [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules. Interesting? I don't think so. Very few and well reasoned rules apply to Autobahn: No turning around. No stopping. There are no crossings of any kind. As on all highways with more than one lane, a Rettungsgasse (emergency way) must be created as soon as traffic congests. > Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will In…

Autobahn rules are interesting specifically because they're few and well reasoned.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#82

Post by DonHopkins » Sat, Oct 06, 2018, 11:52 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #25

This "Dutch reach" thing is an example of a phenomenon I've seen several times before. People who promote a practice seem to think their argument will be more persuasive if the practice came from an admired foreign country, yet the people who live in that country have never heard of it and/or do not commonly do it. In this case it's the Dutch, but I've seen all kinds of similar nonsense about Japan.

The Dutch just call it "The Reach". It's like in space, how they don't call it a "Space Bathroom", it's just a "Bathroom".

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#83

Post by dmckeon » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:05 AM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #70

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do try to stay in practice a little bit, on the off chance you ever want to drive on Dutch or German [1] highways. Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will get you hit by a truck; forgetting the left hand will get you hit by an Audi or BMW (or volvo ;-) ). Both are painful! [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules.

> [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules. Interesting? I don't think so. Very few and well reasoned rules apply to Autobahn: No turning around. No stopping. There are no crossings of any kind. As on all highways with more than one lane, a Rettungsgasse (emergency way) must be created as soon as traffic congests. > Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will In…

Mirror usage in the US was that of the image you reference, and only recently has started to shift. Here is a comparison of the newer (in the US) and older versions: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mir...

The choice is not really between "blind spots" and "no blind spots" but between "one big blind spot on each side" and "two smaller blind spots on each side". YMMV, depending on whether you often drive on multi-lane roads and highways.

Whether a majority of US states adopt one standard or the other is an open question. IMHO, getting USA drivers to increase their roadway situational awareness, whether by adjusting mirrors, reducing distractions, or other means feels like a cause that was lost when cars got radios and air conditioning, and drivers rolled up their windows.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#84

Post by toast0 » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:05 AM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #29

Relying on an uncomfortable behavior change is one option, but as many have noted - really a “reach”. Why don’t we instead take the experience of cities that instead of trying to integrate cars and cyclists, integrated cyclists and pedestrians? Physics are more on your side here - a lot closer weight and size of objects. Possibly even closer speed differential. On a recent trip to Munich, the clear markings and cycli…

As a bike commuter in a city environment, I'd rather be near cars than mix with pedestrians. Cars are more predictable, and move at closer speeds through downtown. Out of congested areas, where cars are going much faster than me, I like being farther away.

At times, I do ride on the sidewalk because of road design or convenience, and it requires a much slower pace if there are pedestrians nearby.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#85

Post by sologoub » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:14 AM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #84

sologoub wrote: post #29

Relying on an uncomfortable behavior change is one option, but as many have noted - really a “reach”. Why don’t we instead take the experience of cities that instead of trying to integrate cars and cyclists, integrated cyclists and pedestrians? Physics are more on your side here - a lot closer weight and size of objects. Possibly even closer speed differential. On a recent trip to Munich, the clear markings and cycli…

As a bike commuter in a city environment, I'd rather be near cars than mix with pedestrians. Cars are more predictable, and move at closer speeds through downtown. Out of congested areas, where cars are going much faster than me, I like being farther away. At times, I do ride on the sidewalk because of road design or convenience, and it requires a much slower pace if there are pedestrians nearby.

Look up Munich- dedicated lanes for bikes, but on the side walk, so no mixing.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#86

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:20 AM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

Just spending enough time on a bike or motorbike will change the way you drive. Not only do you become aware of blind spots but you become a little paranoid about them. You might also learn that hitting a large metal box hurts.

That transfers when the many bikers are driving a car into doing more, and better checks than a typical driver without two wheel experience.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#87

Post by stephengillie » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:21 AM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #70

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do try to stay in practice a little bit, on the off chance you ever want to drive on Dutch or German [1] highways. Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will get you hit by a truck; forgetting the left hand will get you hit by an Audi or BMW (or volvo ;-) ). Both are painful! [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules.

> [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules. Interesting? I don't think so. Very few and well reasoned rules apply to Autobahn: No turning around. No stopping. There are no crossings of any kind. As on all highways with more than one lane, a Rettungsgasse (emergency way) must be created as soon as traffic congests. > Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will In…

American, I was taught the normal arrangement, but I've adopted the blind-spot free after nearly hitting more than a few drivers who were in my blind spot.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#88

Post by twblalock » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:51 AM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #82

twblalock wrote: post #25

This "Dutch reach" thing is an example of a phenomenon I've seen several times before. People who promote a practice seem to think their argument will be more persuasive if the practice came from an admired foreign country, yet the people who live in that country have never heard of it and/or do not commonly do it. In this case it's the Dutch, but I've seen all kinds of similar nonsense about Japan.

The Dutch just call it "The Reach". It's like in space, how they don't call it a "Space Bathroom", it's just a "Bathroom".

You'll see in this thread a lot of Dutch commenters who say they don't do the reach as it is described, nevermind what it is called in English or Dutch.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#89

Post by notacoward » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:56 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #18

I'm a runner. Out of habit I usually run against traffic even when on the sidewalk. I'd be happy if drivers making a right out of a side street/driveway/parking lot would just come to a full stop behind the crosswalk and check to their right. Many drivers don't check to their right, or for that matter even come to a full stop when turning right. There isn't a single run I go on that I don't encounter at least one car…

Amen. I'll just add that sometimes part of the blame should also go to the planners who set up intersections with odd angles and obstructed sight lines so that drivers can't see anything until they're already intruding into the roadway.

Related phenomenon: pedestrian crossings and cutouts placed twenty feet down a side street. Yeah, it might be further from the busier street, but it makes it much harder for either party to see each other or recognize each others' intentions. Ultimately quite bad for safety, even for regular pedestrians but especially for runners. No thanks. I'll stay out where I can see them and they can see me and there's no ambiguity about which direction I'm going, even if that means hopping on and off curbs.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#90

Post by lovemenot » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #35

emptybits wrote: post #14

The Dutch Reach is a reach to ask for, IMO. I write this as a cyclist living in Vancouver (one city named in the article) who has been doored and nearly doored. IME, shoulder checks while actually driving seem to be a dying art form. So asking for a while-parked check like the Dutch Reach ... seems optimistic. But no harm in trying. The illustration is great. I applaud all efforts to make this technique more known. F…

As a cyclist - just don't ride in reach of car doors. If that means taking the lane and blocking cars, do so. At any speed trying to figure out whether or not someone is in it in time to slow down is impossible. Even if you slow down to a crawl as you pass someone sitting in the car you are still relying on them not opening it into your side. If you are right beside the cars you have no space whatsoever to swerve, be…

A cycle messenger in London once told me, if you have to hit the door, aim for the hinge.

Presumably because you'd be launched over the door not into it, and thus protected from traffic in either direction. Perhaps also because the person opening the door might cushion your impact!