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The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

nytimes.com

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Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#61

Post by sologoub »

mkingston wrote: post #43
sologoub wrote: post #29

Relying on an uncomfortable behavior change is one option, but as many have noted - really a “reach”. Why don’t we instead take the experience of cities that instead of trying to integrate cars and cyclists, integrated cyclists and pedestrians? Physics are more on your side here - a lot closer weight and size of objects. Possibly even closer speed differential. On a recent trip to Munich, the clear markings and cycli…

Many cyclists travel quickly enough they find that having to give way at every side road (like a pedestrian would) is a tremendous hassle. If these routes were unbroken (as they are in a few places) this would be a great solution.

That’s definitely possible, but in most cities cross-traffic is a reality for cars and pedestrians alike. Cyclists and now electric scooters often run the stop signs, lights, etc. it’s debatable what’s safer for them, but for everyone around it becomes not just a “hassle” but a real hazard.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#62

Post by Kim_Bruning »

dfox wrote: post #51
emptybits wrote: post #14

The Dutch Reach is a reach to ask for, IMO. I write this as a cyclist living in Vancouver (one city named in the article) who has been doored and nearly doored. IME, shoulder checks while actually driving seem to be a dying art form. So asking for a while-parked check like the Dutch Reach ... seems optimistic. But no harm in trying. The illustration is great. I applaud all efforts to make this technique more known. F…

I used to do shoulder checks often but stoped to do so unless absolutely necessary because the practice also causes you to lose awarenes of what is in front of you and more importantly you can lose awareness of the direction of your movement.

Do try to stay in practice a little bit, on the off chance you ever want to drive on Dutch or German [1] highways. Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will get you hit by a truck; forgetting the left hand will get you hit by an Audi or BMW (or volvo ;-) ). Both are painful!

[1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#63

Post by blattimwind »

kbenson wrote: post #55
rocqua wrote: post #49

I'm dutch, and I've only ever heard about this on the internet, never here. Notably, I don't recall this whilst getting my driving license only 2 years ago. To check, I got my theory book. It says the following: > After the part about doing visual checks > When it is visually safe, hold the door handle with the left hand, and open the door using the right hand as far as is necessary and exit the vehicle. So it explic…

> After the part about doing visual checks > When it is visually safe, hold the door handle with the left hand, and open the door using the right hand as far as is necessary and exit the vehicle. That is the Dutch reach, to my understanding. 99% Invisible did a story on it a couple years ago, and that was covered here.[1] 600 comments. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12674533

No. The dutch reach is with the right hand, which forces you to turn the upper body to reach the handle. Supposedly this sort-of forces you to do a over the shoulder check.

I think if you were taught proper driving technique, then there is no need for such concortions. You will always check the mirror and look over your shoulder before opening the door, even if only subconsciously. Just like you always check lengthwise traffic before making a turn, or checking traffic behind you before switching into another lane.

This is an issue of driver's education. Not which hand you use to open the door.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#64

Post by agumonkey »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

Cultural importance too. When so many people you may know are bikers, including you, you might empathize a lot more with them rather than see them as anonymous frail annoyances to pass.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#65

Post by Kim_Bruning »

jernfrost wrote: post #58

I think the key to safety for bikers in the Netherlands is simply the sheer number of them. When you visit the Netherlands. Within 15 minutes you have gotten used to scanning for bikers everywhere. There are so many of them and they come so frequently that you cannot not get into the habit of looking for them. The importance of numbers is something often overlooked. I read an article discussing the different approach…

I think there's some direction of causation issues here. The Netherlands has invested in road design that makes cycling safer;

Therefore ->

A) more people ride bikes.

B) Less people wear helmets.

A and B are correlated, but this is due to a 3rd external cause. They do not cause each other.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#66

Post by stevesimmons »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #47
Symbiote wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the "Dutch" idioms will be from Pennsylvania Dutch, they all come from being the neighbour country to England.

Pennsylvanian "Dutch" is a corruption of "Deutsche", and the community German is it not? As I understood it many of American "Dutch" idioms were originally meant to be referencing German. You do get cookie from Dutch though. Cookie comes from the Dutch keokje.

koekje :)

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#67

Post by anotherevan »

I've gone through bouts of trying to adopt this habit. One thing that makes it harder is that the door handle in my car is designed to make it easy to open with the door-side hand. It is forwards on the door (near the hinged end) and opens by pulling the handle back.

If the handle was at the back of the door it would promote the habit as it would actually be easier to open the door by reaching across with the opposite hand then try to scrunch your door-side arm back to get at the handle.

I wonder where the door handles are located in the majority of cars in Holland.

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#68

Post by Kim_Bruning »

blattimwind wrote: post #63
kbenson wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After the part about doing visual checks > When it is visually safe, hold the door handle with the left hand, and open the door using the right hand as far as is necessary and exit the vehicle. That is the Dutch reach, to my understanding. 99% Invisible did a story on it a couple years ago, and that was covered here.[1] 600 comments. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12674533

No. The dutch reach is with the right hand, which forces you to turn the upper body to reach the handle. Supposedly this sort-of forces you to do a over the shoulder check. I think if you were taught proper driving technique, then there is no need for such concortions. You will always check the mirror and look over your shoulder before opening the door, even if only subconsciously. Just like you always check lengthwi…

I think it also depends on whether you have auto-folding mirrors. (I was taught to check my rear-view mirror before opening the door. That doesn't work in my new car with folding mirrors; so now I sometimes use the dutch reach, even though I was never taught it back in the day)

Re: The Dutch Reach: A No-Tech Way to Save Bicyclists’ Lives

#70

Post by blattimwind »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #62
dfox wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to do shoulder checks often but stoped to do so unless absolutely necessary because the practice also causes you to lose awarenes of what is in front of you and more importantly you can lose awareness of the direction of your movement.

Do try to stay in practice a little bit, on the off chance you ever want to drive on Dutch or German [1] highways. Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will get you hit by a truck; forgetting the left hand will get you hit by an Audi or BMW (or volvo ;-) ). Both are painful! [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules.

> [1] German highway is called "Autobahn", and has some interesting traffic rules.

Interesting? I don't think so. Very few and well reasoned rules apply to Autobahn: No turning around. No stopping. There are no crossings of any kind. As on all highways with more than one lane, a Rettungsgasse (emergency way) must be created as soon as traffic congests.

> Forgetting to check your right hand mirror and shoulder will

Incidentally, it seems mirrors are thought very differently in the US. It seems in the US a "blind spot free" arrangement is preferred, meanwhile in Germany the normal arrangement is preferred. Fun fact: The English Wikipedia has this image ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/Bl... 9 ) as an example of incorrectly adjusted mirrors. The German Wikipedia uses the exact same image as an example of correctly adjusted mirrors.

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