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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#331

Post by _louisr_ »

gambler wrote: post #100

>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make i…

It's a terrifying reason to change the CoC because he does not want to appear racist. The mainstream media and Twitter hide the sane & reasonable people that oppose many diversity + inclusion measures, while showcasing the nastiest people from that side of the argument. Linus has taken that false image as the truth; he wants to separate himself from the people on that side. But the truth is that there are a greater number of people that oppose diversity, inclusivity, and equity efforts on the grounds that they trample an individual's moral authority & are based in Marxist lines of thought, than there are people who oppose those efforts because they have a deeply held prejudice.

It's truly sickening that the truth about diversity, inclusion, and equity is so muddled that even Linus can be deceived about it's nature. Fundamentally, the D.I.E. values are racist, Marxist, anti-capitalist, anti-merit, anti-competence at their core, and they pose a significant threat to modern working culture. Their threat is mostly their guise of compassion.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#332

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

scrollaway wrote: post #285
adamrezich wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots…

I've generally been against CoC in less-than-huge projects for practical reasons (as a founder and leader of several communities, both in FOSS and outside of software, I have my informed opinion on what works to maintain good community health). I can attest that the people GP refers to exist, but it's more complicated than that. Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the com…

>Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the community in question

I don't understand the word sometimes. I have yet to be shown an example where a woman, trans person, person of color, Muslim, or someone on whatever the oppression index is today was discriminated against when pushing code to a project. No one knows what you are unless you tell them - and it's always been 100% irrelevant to the topic of coding.

This is absolutely trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist while flat out saying things like "we're trying to change the predominantly white face of programming"... wtf.

>They're also often seen as a way to legitimize a "we can silence you for any reason we choose" behaviour that is far too frequent in community moderators.

Because that was IMMEDIATELY what actually happened.

I don't care one way or the other. I don't contribute to FOSS because my job isn't really conducive for that to be part of my activities. But I see people who are looking for a fight just to fight, and that's a bad idea.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#333

Post by notacoward »

whiddershins wrote: post #324
notacoward wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects?" I think there are many reasons. This is certainly not the only one, but it's one I've run into quite a bit. Keep in mind that people usually don't realize how their behavior, or their acquiescence to others' behavior, is harming or excluding others. They feel no need for a CoC to support their si…

I truly believe you are misunderstanding Linus’ email. He is referring to overt white nationalists and racists. Like storm front types. You seem to be referring to subconscious bias, which seems to be literally an endless accusation.

I truly believe you are misunderstanding my comments. Linus himself might indeed only be concerned with the extreme "Storm Front types" as you say, but the topic for the last three comments prior to yours was the people who act offended by his actions. Subconscious bias is relevant to them, even if it's not to him.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#334

Post by daveFNbuck »

notacoward wrote: post #238
simias wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studi…

> for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. I'll go one further. "The nasty one" is a role that usually begs to be filled, even in a good cause. Sometimes it's even essential to progress. "Good cop, bad cop" works. I'm more likely to play "bad cop" myself, though at least I'm usually aware of it being a situational role. I've definitely said things that would have violated a CoC if there had been one in…

The problem with your metaphor is that "good cop, bad cop" is something you do to someone you're trying to deceive in order to further your own agenda at their expense. It's a way to behave toward an adversary, not someone who you're trying to work with.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#335

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

ravenstine wrote: post #278
sonnyblarney wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wrong with saying something is crap, if it is actually that, and if there isn't really an individual on the other side. Generally, it's probably not a good idea to use such language with an individual. But if it's 'not good' - you can say that. But finally there's no reason to demean individuals arbitrarily. This discussion is wayward: it's not about groups, minorities or being PC ... it's really just…

> But you can't be an arbitrary jerk. Why not? Who invented that rule?

Fair point.

As to the topic, I don't think it's ever been a mystery to Torvalds why people might not like him. Doesn't really change anything about the product.

Not to compare him to anyone else, but who really thinks that talented artisans throughout history were great people to be around?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#336

Post by wayne_skylar »

This is something that has always bothered me about Linus. There are other extremely gifted programmers out there that don't seem to need to resort to this kind of persona. I always enjoyed hearing John Carmack speak because he is extremely smart and knowledgable and he doesn't look like he has a superiority complex.

But the real problem with Linus is the example he sets. I am not a kernel dev, so I don't know the validity of his rants but I assume he is mostly right. But this certainly sends a message to less-talented developers that it's okay to be a dick when you are right.

Ultimately I feel that the most important thing I have learned as a developer is to never associate your ego with your code. I've done that in the past and take great pains to not repeat it. Don't look at your PR as some great work of art that should be perfect. If both sides of the code review treat it as a collaborative process then you can both learn something from it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#337

Post by smoothy2 »

The only functional change out of this whole drama is that now every project will eventually come to be run by SJWs.

Looks like the main change that the COC will introduce from previous status quo is that anyone anytime can be Brendan Eiche'd out of an open source project whereas previously the understanding was that you could accept code contribution from Alex Jones himself as long as the code contribution to project itself was reasonable.

Edit: I should add that I'm a non-white person. Shameful that adding this piece of information might bring some more credibility to my input.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#338

Post by Boulth »

wayne_skylar wrote: post #336

This is something that has always bothered me about Linus. There are other extremely gifted programmers out there that don't seem to need to resort to this kind of persona. I always enjoyed hearing John Carmack speak because he is extremely smart and knowledgable and he doesn't look like he has a superiority complex. But the real problem with Linus is the example he sets. I am not a kernel dev, so I don't know the va…

Note that Linus has to deal with a lot of random people on the mailing list while Carmack doesn't have this kind of job.

Also, I don't think Linus has superiority complex, although I don't know him personally. I guess it's just a classic example of technical person that has weak soft skills.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#339

Post by TAForObvReasons »

JohnBooty wrote: post #323

> I'm still not exactly the most empathetic person. > But I'm hoping I can at least 'fake it until I > make it'. This is great! If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. What do you think "actually" being a helpful or empathetic person is like? It's basically just continually expending the effort to be helpful and empathetic. Let's say my brother calls…

The best part was the next sentence:

> Part of that 'faking it' is definitely going to be a filter on my outgoing emails

That's about 95% of what people asked for over the decades. You can get your point across without incendiary language and belittling comments, and merely scanning for sensitive words is enough for most cases

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#340

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

mike22223333 wrote: post #317

I'm probably a person with not so great social skills. I'm a person of color. I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture. All of a sudden this movement to add "diversity" and other crap is just not right. I agree there is some casual racism/racism for the sake of racism in the community, but I am personally not even bothered and it has never affected me (I ignored them and they stopped and so…

>I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture.

All the SJW issues are like that, a group of people who feel they need to defend someone else. Like these people have solved all their own problems and can move on to "helping" everyone else.

I'm not going to get too fired up about it. But... I really cringe when I read "We're trying to change the predominately white face of programming". But, they aren't saying they'll do that by promoting people of color, or by opening a new distro that designed to be contributed more by people focused on social justice.

IDK... At some point I wonder why the color of my skin is so important to the people "trying to help".

edit: LOL shy downvotes. Because you can't tell me my skin color or physical features are important to my work - but you can't say that's not what this is all about either. Hackernews is becoming more and more like reddit :(

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