Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 483 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#161

Post by notyourday »

evanspa wrote: post #133
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

Why do you feel it is "the natural tendency" to make minorities feel less welcome? My natural tendency -- and anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know -- is to treat people well regardless of their race; to treat people the way you'd want to be treated.

Because people need a scapegoat. For those for whom it is not minorities, it is people who in their mind must hate minorities.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#162

Post by Spooky23 »

asdkhadsj wrote: post #8
rectang wrote: post #4

It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.

This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux…

There's different types of communication.

From my casual view, he's not a great communicator in the sense of communicating with the public. That requires measured response and dealing with issues in a particular way.

He is a master of his craft, and very effective technical communicator. As a non-kernel programmer, I can read something that he writes about and understand it enough to answer questions I have about how things work.

It's one of the challenges of working in big groups of people. He is dealing with a huge community, all with their own interests and agendas in pursuit of his vision of excellence. In a private company he would be able to exert (directly or indirectly) control over the conduct of community members. In this public forum, he has the ability to influence rhetorically or control what gets past him. That's a different and more difficult form of control, especially when you have to do it in public.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#163

Post by gambler »

notacoward wrote: post #104

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you loo…

>The creeps should consider themselves on notice, whether there's a CoC or not.

Yep, no politics here. No us-vs-them tribalism. No power plays. No jeering and celebrating a "victory" over "the other side". Just improving the community and making it more welcoming to everyone, that's what it's all about.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#164

Post by DFHippie »

deelowe wrote: post #131
yourbandsucks wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, on most political or religious topics, people leave that stuff at home and don't bring it to work. The SJW people are bringing it to work and right into everybody's face. I'm not saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". I'm saying "could you please get that out of my face".

Are we still talking about the LKML here? I don't feel "SJW" has much of anything to do with this outside of a few very isolated incidents. Personal attacks and disrespectfulness has been a staple in that community for decades at this point and definitely predates the somewhat modern hatefulness surrounding bias and privilege.

Off-topic and a minor thing, but "predate" is what predators do to prey. "Pre-date" is what one moment can do to another. At least according to my wife, for whom this matter looms large (she is an editor).

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#165

Post by spaniard89277 »

alfredmuffin wrote: post #109
spaniard89277 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time. Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

> Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time It is this attitude that drives people, and especially women and minorities, away from tech.

I work with women, I don't think they are that stupid they cannot handle it. It must be something else. Definitely none of them cried or left because we get to the point in the meetings, or I don't compliment them before criticizing their work.

I think not working like this may be even weird for some of my foreign coworkers.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#166

Post by qrbLPHiKpiux »

ceejayoz wrote: post #142
qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #122

No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. If that person doesn't like working with someone, that's their problem and they should work elsewhere. I'm sick of this SJW stuff.

I'd avoid changing myself over one random person's opinion. If a large number of people held the same opinion about me, and that group contained numerous people whose opinions I tend to respect and agree with, I might consider the possibility that I'm not perfect and work to better myself.

Let me nail down my point. If a certain group of people with a similar social or political ideology doesn't like me, I'm not changing. That's what this is all about.

Edit: To discount all that LT has done and to what extent his work that de facto runs almost everything - is naive.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#167

Post by ilikehurdles »

notyourday wrote: post #136
matthewmacleod wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've done that – and I've not been a dick about it. Why is it such a prevalent idea that someone has to be an asshole in order to give negative feedback, or to take an action that someone doesn't like?

Because me telling you that your code sucks is not being anti-gay if you are gay or anti-trans if you are trans. It is me telling you that your code sucks. You should either make your code not suck, or you can GTFO unless I'm lower on the org chart than you are, then you can do whatever you want, including telling me to shove it or GTFO and based on how I feel about it, I can either forget about it or GTFO. That's eq…

In the course of your excessive use of hyperbole and strawman, you've effectively turned off anyone who might have been interested in hearing your argument out. I'm not sure what point, if any, you're trying to make here other than to air out grievances about some grossly unrealistic perception of other people based entirely on [social] media stereotypes.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#168

Post by mikeash »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #134
mikeash wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said this stuff “pushes me away from it.” It should push you away from the troublesome people, and nothing more. When you say most people leave this stuff at home, that seems to imply that the status quo is neutral. It isn’t. Continuing to treat people the way you always have is just as much of a statement as saying you should treat people differently. It’s just easier to find agreement.

I'm a different person than the original poster, but hey I'm pushed away too, so let's go with it. SJWs do not have a monopoly on thought, on how to deal with societal problems, or any of that. This isn't a 'tolerance of intolerance' thing, it's a 'tolerance of those outside your very narrow camp' thing. Most of the individuals I've encountered couldn't tell you who their congressman is, and they'd never go door to d…

By talking about how problematic these people are, you miss and reinforce my point.

I’m not saying anything about how they behave or whether it’s acceptable or helpful. I’m saying that how you behave should not be determined by them. If you’ve decided not to encourage people to do the right thing (or, worse, stop doing the right thing yourself) because some other people are jerks, you’re just making excuses for behaving badly.

There is a useful discussion to be had about persuasion. Phrases like “it pushes people away” are perfectly fine of that’s what happens. But when it becomes “it pushes me away,” well, take some responsibility for your own beliefs and actions.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#169

Post by notacoward »

adamrezich wrote: post #116
notacoward wrote: post #104

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you loo…

>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots…

"Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects?"

I think there are many reasons. This is certainly not the only one, but it's one I've run into quite a bit. Keep in mind that people usually don't realize how their behavior, or their acquiescence to others' behavior, is harming or excluding others. They feel no need for a CoC to support their side in any dispute, because the in-group already supports them. If any piling-on occurs, it's on their side. Thus they see only how a CoC might inhibit them in some (usually hypothetical) scenario, while remaining blind to how it might enable others. They oppose it "on principle" but it's a flawed principle.

But the point is not that I believe that. The point is that Linus clearly does (see quote) and he's willing to do something about it. If a CoC doesn't work, then I would expect to see him coming down personally on some of the worst offenders. I've known and worked with a few of them, so I for one would welcome that.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#170

Post by [deleted] »

adamrezich wrote: post #116
notacoward wrote: post #104

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you loo…

>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN