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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#141

Post by eropple »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #13
golergka wrote: post #2

> That has now been replaced by a more detailed Code of Conduct - which retains the acronym, but attempts to be more inclusive and eliminate insulting and derogatory comments and behaviour. To include only this short paragraph about the new CoC and omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated in the community is extremely biased reporting on BBC's part.

omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated That’s something that hasn’t happened, though. It’s a storm in a teacup, like all this stuff is.

Yes, and this is important to understand for those who happen to be browsing by: there is a political faction on the internet who really would like people to believe that there is some Huge Controversy about the Contributor Covenant or about any of the principals involved or this or that.

But there isn't. Sure, there are some mad people. But they are a rounding error of give-a-shit and their political position, for it is a political position--specifically, status quo regressiveness camouflaged as neutrality[0]--depends on manufacturing consent that does not exist.

[0] - I have yet to see someone claim that they're "not being political" who...isn't. Or somebody claim that somebody else is "being political" when that claimant is not advocating for some nasty stuff. The world's political and somebody trying to frame "politics" as a negative is trying to get you over a barrel.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#142

Post by ceejayoz »

qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #122

No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. If that person doesn't like working with someone, that's their problem and they should work elsewhere. I'm sick of this SJW stuff.

I'd avoid changing myself over one random person's opinion.

If a large number of people held the same opinion about me, and that group contained numerous people whose opinions I tend to respect and agree with, I might consider the possibility that I'm not perfect and work to better myself.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#143

Post by inawarminister »

catfish123 wrote: post #107
stemc43 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While everyone was spending their time learning how to be nice - this guy actually sat down and built something useful.

Does it take hours to learn not to write "$people should be retroactively aborted"? Weeks?

Years, lifetime. If it is so easy to force people to be polite, societies would already taken that low hanging fruit ages before*

*Actually, they do in some societies, such as for example Japan, or my own native Java. People insult each other with more esoteric means instead.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#144

Post by adrianN »

deelowe wrote: post #131
yourbandsucks wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, on most political or religious topics, people leave that stuff at home and don't bring it to work. The SJW people are bringing it to work and right into everybody's face. I'm not saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". I'm saying "could you please get that out of my face".

Are we still talking about the LKML here? I don't feel "SJW" has much of anything to do with this outside of a few very isolated incidents. Personal attacks and disrespectfulness has been a staple in that community for decades at this point and definitely predates the somewhat modern hatefulness surrounding bias and privilege.

I haven't been following the LKML too closely but I can't recall personal attacks. I can recall people's code and ideas being called shit.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#145

Post by eropple »

yosefzeev wrote: post #135
krapp wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it seems as if the politics being discussed here apply to the project and its contributors, it's not as if a Code of Conduct is being applied to you, the end user. Unless they add something political to the license itself, I don't see why it would matter.

If it doesn't matter, why is Linus making it an issue?

Oh, heck, I don't know.

Maybe because he realizes he's been pissing in the pool, that others are also pissing in the pool, that nobody should be pissing in the pool, and the first step to creating a social understanding of "don't piss in the pool" is to put up a sign to that effect.

Or maybe it's the evil, mustachio-twirling social justice warriors, somehow hectoring a project worth billions of dollars to its component contributors into listening to little old them. That is equally as plausible.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#146

Post by ilikehurdles »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #134
mikeash wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said this stuff “pushes me away from it.” It should push you away from the troublesome people, and nothing more. When you say most people leave this stuff at home, that seems to imply that the status quo is neutral. It isn’t. Continuing to treat people the way you always have is just as much of a statement as saying you should treat people differently. It’s just easier to find agreement.

I'm a different person than the original poster, but hey I'm pushed away too, so let's go with it. SJWs do not have a monopoly on thought, on how to deal with societal problems, or any of that. This isn't a 'tolerance of intolerance' thing, it's a 'tolerance of those outside your very narrow camp' thing. Most of the individuals I've encountered couldn't tell you who their congressman is, and they'd never go door to d…

What offensive rules have you faced?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#147

Post by ericdykstra »

The "Contributor Covenant" is just the method of covert conquest of open source projects by people who have never contributed to them. It's possible to have a Code of Conduct without giving it the power to be a selectively-used cudgel written and pushed by people who want to do just that.

For example, I think the Ruby Community Conduct Guideline is a great document: https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#148

Post by SolaceQuantum »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #113
mikeash wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

The thing is, on most political or religious topics, people leave that stuff at home and don't bring it to work. The SJW people are bringing it to work and right into everybody's face. I'm not saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". I'm saying "could you please get that out of my face".

I currently work and no, people don’t leave their politics at work. You’ll hear about people’s partners and they’ll expect to hear the same form you, which is now a political matter because some states let you get fired for being gay (sexuality is now political). People will talk about current events, the latest and greatest hit tweets from the POTUS, so on and so forth. Hell I can hardly have lunch with co workers without them telling me how they feel about younger people , talking ethnicity and immigration...

The problem is a lot of “sjw” stuff is basic identity that is considered political. Wanting to be seen as a woman is political to a lot of people, but it’s not seen as political to ignore someone’s requested pronouns. Being gay can be a firable offense with no repercussions in many states, but it’s not considered political to talk about your hetereosexual marriage at work. The definition of “bringing politics to work” is inconsistent except to consistently inform minorities that trying to achieve equal treatment is political, but continuing to contribute to systematic erasure of minorities is not.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#150

Post by digitaLandscape »

Nasrudith wrote: post #105
ritchiea wrote: post #50

The idea of faking it until you make it is exactly what Linus needs. Most of the point of communication is for the other person, especially giving feedback on patches. We all need to vent but we shouldn't vent at the people below us in an organization. Venting is for a counselor, and maybe a close peer? And it's ok if he's frustrated with people, he just shouldn't take it out on them. Maybe he could find someone to g…

Personally I consider fake it until you make it an incredibly dangerous ideal. That is how you get the Great Leap Forward, Banzai Charges, and Theranos. It leads to far too many delusions that become the seeds of downfall. Better to say in the case of Theranos state that the initial idea is proving non-viable but we have assembled a good talent base in biotech. We technically could liquidate the existing investment b…

It takes a special kind of motivated stupidity to project from Linus' statement to Theranos. Stop trolling.
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