Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite' • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#191

Post by aetimmes » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

08-15 wrote: post #159

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Imagine you are Linux and you receive a messy patch so poorly structured that you can't follow the logic of the code. As Tony Hoare used to put it, the kind of code that doesn't have obvious bugs, but isn't obviously free of bugs. What do you tell the submitter? You can't really point at specific problems, merely at a gut feeling that the mess must be hiding problems. Then the submitter shoots back: "You rejected my…

You do what you should have done in the first place and locate specific problems.

If the code is too clever for you, ask them to refactor in a simpler way rather than rejecting outright.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#192

Post by Iem6gaoc » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

mosselman wrote: post #16

stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

So you are either a truthful asshole or a kind liar? There are no people who are kind and honest?

Maybe there are, but those are two distinct (although not necessarily orthogonal) metrics and thus the overlap where you get to maximize both tends to be much smaller.

In other words there may be much fewer people who are truthful, kind and technically skilled at the same time.

If kindness were constant among people we wouldn't say that some people are different.

If kindness is trainable and important, why is it not taught in schools?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#193

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #172

beaconstudios wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not turning around and saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". incidentally, the people who did decide to do this became the alt-right.

The alt-right as a movement is pretty clearly a counterreaction to the social justice movement, but I’m not sure if it’s so much reasonable people getting radicalized than an already rather unpleasant subset of the population finding a platform – and an echo chamber – for their unpleasantness.

Many of them blame the left for pushing them away. It’s probably not true, but it makes a convenient excuse for people.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#194

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #166

ceejayoz wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd avoid changing myself over one random person's opinion. If a large number of people held the same opinion about me, and that group contained numerous people whose opinions I tend to respect and agree with, I might consider the possibility that I'm not perfect and work to better myself.

Let me nail down my point. If a certain group of people with a similar social or political ideology doesn't like me, I'm not changing. That's what this is all about. Edit: To discount all that LT has done and to what extent his work that de facto runs almost everything - is naive.

> To discount all that LT has done

As far as I can determine, literally no one is doing this.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#195

Post by sonnyblarney » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

davidkuhta wrote: post #41

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

There's nothing wrong with saying something is crap, if it is actually that, and if there isn't really an individual on the other side.

Generally, it's probably not a good idea to use such language with an individual. But if it's 'not good' - you can say that.

But finally there's no reason to demean individuals arbitrarily.

This discussion is wayward: it's not about groups, minorities or being PC ... it's really just about being 'honest' vs. 'being sensitive'.

Some people perceive some honest remarks as insensitive, while others perceive 'politically sensitive' remarks as dishonest, and therefore a little offensive.

Personally I'm in the 'candid' camp, but I don't mind people who are a little indirect with the intention of being nice.

This has nothing to do with arbitrary douchebaggery - there's never any reason for that. Ok - maybe you scan scream at a big, faceless corporation now and again, but not individuals.

I think there's too much intellectualize of this subject and so many are missing the point.

You can be candid or sensitive, that should be your choice.

But you can't be an arbitrary jerk.

If Linus wants to be candid at the cost of not being well received, then fine. But he shouldn't be attacking people.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#196

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

alfredmuffin wrote: post #121

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would simply not fly at my company. Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.

Can't speak for others, but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness. Naturally, the individuals who argued against these changes were older white male engineers too ingrained in their ways.

> but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness

That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least he's honest" makes sense.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#197

Post by ayyyyylmao2000 » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #136

matthewmacleod wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've done that – and I've not been a dick about it. Why is it such a prevalent idea that someone has to be an asshole in order to give negative feedback, or to take an action that someone doesn't like?

Because me telling you that your code sucks is not being anti-gay if you are gay or anti-trans if you are trans. It is me telling you that your code sucks. You should either make your code not suck, or you can GTFO unless I'm lower on the org chart than you are, then you can do whatever you want, including telling me to shove it or GTFO and based on how I feel about it, I can either forget about it or GTFO. That's eq…

I don't see any straw-man fallacy on what you wrote. Internet culture is anonymous. That itself says much about status quo. I'm sick of these Social Justice Warrior movements invading every space. I've treated people of every religion, race and sexual orientation as an equal. This is just a mechanism to inject entropy and drive away anyone willing to produce and build marvelous things.

But of course a few (self-admitted with a lot of publicity) transsexuals sit atop this movement and harass everyone who does not agree with their views and destroy their life.

Like Tso (second in-command) being labeled as a "rape apologist" for not agreeing with the CoC.

SJW infiltration is a movement to implement Cold War-era silencing on everyone.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#198

Post by eeZah7Ux » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

rooam-dev wrote: post #31

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Sometimes "constructive" requires more effort, which for an engineer could mean "overhead". Especially if communication is text based (email, chat, etc.), it's more difficult to express your emotions. My imho of course.

> Sometimes "constructive" requires more effort

Not typing insults saves time. We are not talking about psychologist-grade emotional communication, just basic manners.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#199

Post by AllegedAlec » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #119

yourbandsucks wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, on most political or religious topics, people leave that stuff at home and don't bring it to work. The SJW people are bringing it to work and right into everybody's face. I'm not saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". I'm saying "could you please get that out of my face".

> I'm not turning around and saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". incidentally, the people who did decide to do this became the alt-right.

Alt-right was a term used by grass-roots movements and libertarians long before the term was ever co-opted by other groups. If you mean neo-nazis, just say neo-nazis.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#200

Post by NikolaNovak » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

steve_taylor wrote: post #34

NikolaNovak wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"? It sounds ... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S

The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org/ Author and signatory #1 is the same as the Contributor Covenant, which is the CoC adopted by the Linux Kernel.

Thanks for the link!

Upon my first read, as I frequently find is the case, I either agree or disagree with it, based on unfortunately unspecified context and goals. I feel in general many manifestos, value statements, etc (generally focusing on "how do we accomplish something") would benefit from stating goals ("what are we trying to accomplish").

Once we agree on the goals, we can more objectively (if not perfectly objectively) discuss do these methods and statements move us toward these goals.

In general life, absolutely, I'll agree with most or maybe even all statements. I wouldn't even find them particularly controversial. Communication can be as important as technical skills - sure, I live that every day. We need to understand privilege, and enable everybody - absolutely. True on vast majority of projects in vast majority of contexts I've been part of. Etc

But not all: If (for an extreme example) the context is a small highly proficient working group and goal is an unprecedented technical achievement, majority of these are either unproductive or counterproductive to the goal and the context. If you have three people in the world that understand math to accomplish this project, and your goal is to accomplish this project, you need to involve at least one of the three people in this project - their background, communication skillset, and other aspects notwithstanding.

So stating goals is I find critical in evaluating methods to accomplish those goals.