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'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

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Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#91

Post by lostcolony »

recursive wrote: post #88
neetdavid wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly a lack of evidence

Lack of evidence can't really ever prove anything.

I think part of is the nature of it. Why would you get sufficiently into this scene, care enough about this one game to post video after video of you speedrunning it, to then cheat? The challenge for someone doing it manually is to do it manually; the challenge for someone doing it TAS is to do it TAS. Without the challenge there is literally no reason to do it. So while lack of evidence can't really prove anything, there really isn't that much motivation to cheat. If it was a complete nobody claiming they had manually set a record, yeah, that's suspicious, but someone well involved in the scene either is playing the long con for something that they themselves don't care about (and which they can't really revel in since any sort of in person interaction would show they're frauds), which is unlikely, or they're legit.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#92

Post by tehz »

kchoudhu wrote: post #46
pattle wrote: post #11

If anyone is interested in speed runs I really recommend this YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w Thy're a series of videos on how world records have been lowered over time on various games. It's fascinating watching particularity the one on Super Mario 64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s

Did you ever see this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A This guy literally has a PhD in SM64. It's insanely complicated, and surprisingly lucid.

See also his four part series (course, really) on wall, ceiling, and floor interactions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnU7DJXiMAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9fUV7uA2_s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kbABTyeo8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRCjVLqjST4

It's amazing how engrossing they are.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#93

Post by danharaj »

danso wrote: post #83
ATsch wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the game and category. Category rules are established by the community and the top priority is runs being fun to watch and play. Usually, any glitches are fair game. However, if any game-breaking glitches are found, the category will usually be split into one that allows and one that disallows the glitch. For example, Portal speedruns were split into "out of bounds" and "inbounds" categories once glitch…

Same situation for Super Metroid, which seems to be one of the most popular games for speedrunning. The "anything goes" category seems to be "Any% Glitched" [0], which allows for techniques that modify in-game memory values -- the current record is 12m19s. The most popular category, and fun to watch (IMO) is "Any%" [1], which does not allow for such memory tricks and has a current record of 41m18s. But the latter is…

> there's at least one boss who behaves randomly

Phantoon, bane of speedrunners.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#94

Post by crooked-v »

kchoudhu wrote: post #46
pattle wrote: post #11

If anyone is interested in speed runs I really recommend this YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w Thy're a series of videos on how world records have been lowered over time on various games. It's fascinating watching particularity the one on Super Mario 64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s

Did you ever see this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A This guy literally has a PhD in SM64. It's insanely complicated, and surprisingly lucid.

I wonder how often he has to deal with "Dr. Mario" jokes.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#95

Post by JoshTriplett »

darepublic wrote: post #87
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it needs to be verified, a camera on his hands would be enough for experts to be able to see that. Also if the inputs are visualised on screen.

What if he uses prerecorded footage of his hands, created by using some kind of TAS programmed to perform a 4:55 run in human style and then outputs those button presses to a screen. So instead of playing the game, he just presses what he sees on the screen. It would take a lot of work but would arguably be a lot easier than actually accomplishing the real run. Then, the footage is just TAS footage and the camera on…

> So instead of playing the game, he just presses what he sees on the screen. It would take a lot of work but would arguably be a lot easier than actually accomplishing the real run.

First, matching prerecorded input with the frame-precision required would be nearly as difficult as doing the run, if not more so. At this point, he's already trying to produce very specific inputs that require frame-precision; he's not reacting to what's on the screen and adapting on the fly.

Second, some TAS techniques are incredibly difficult for a human to replicate, and there'd be an expectation that he can replicate those tricks at least sometimes.

Third, some of the techniques for detecting this kind of cheating include carefully watching the inputs to see if they're ever just the slightest bit late or early.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#97

Post by astura »

reificator wrote: post #90
astura wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speed runner come up with different "categories" for runs. The most common is "Any %," also the most basic, it means finish the game, usually anything goes, glitch away. You can also have no glitches category, 100% complete, no warps, no powerups, all s, etc. Sky's the limit. The community creates the categories.

Any% refers to completion percentage, not the number of glitches allowed. But yes, some categories allow for glitches and some don't. Over the years the Super Mario Bros community in particular has become more accepting of glitches, as otherwise both TAS and human runs would have hit the limit of how fast is possible. By allowing glitches there is now always a possibility that the runs can be further improved.

>Any% refers to completion percentage, not the number of glitches allowed.

Indeed, which is why I said "usually."

I usually see "Any %" and "Any % no glitches," but I just dabble in watching speedruns. If I see "Any %" with no other qualifiers, I'm going to assume glitching is allowed.

I think it can be a bit arbitrary at times when a technique is considered "glitching" or not. The community decides. Which is fine.

I saw a speedrun of Super Ghouls and Ghosts that had a clever limitation - "pick up all weapons that show up." If you're familiar with the game, if you pick up a weapon you lose your previous weapon and some weapons are way worse than others.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#98

Post by 0x8BADF00D »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #86
astura wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speed runner come up with different "categories" for runs. The most common is "Any %," also the most basic, it means finish the game, usually anything goes, glitch away. You can also have no glitches category, 100% complete, no warps, no powerups, all s, etc. Sky's the limit. The community creates the categories.

My favorite are randomized speed runs, where everyone gets the same randomized version and have to speed run it against each other. Normally these are done as real time races and the results of the randomization aren't known to the player until they start. Not all games support it (think games like Zelda and Metroid where you have to collect powerups to push get past obstacles to collect more powerups to get past mor…

> Not all games support it (think games like Zelda and Metroid where you have to collect powerups to push get past obstacles to collect more powerups to get past more obstacles).

There is, however, OoT Randomizer[1] which is really fun to play and watch. You can get end stage items at the beginning depending on your seed.

[1] https://github.com/AmazingAmpharos/OoT-Randomizer

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#99

Post by PurpleBoxDragon »

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #98
PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite are randomized speed runs, where everyone gets the same randomized version and have to speed run it against each other. Normally these are done as real time races and the results of the randomization aren't known to the player until they start. Not all games support it (think games like Zelda and Metroid where you have to collect powerups to push get past obstacles to collect more powerups to get past mor…

> Not all games support it (think games like Zelda and Metroid where you have to collect powerups to push get past obstacles to collect more powerups to get past more obstacles). There is, however, OoT Randomizer[1] which is really fun to play and watch. You can get end stage items at the beginning depending on your seed. [1] https://github.com/AmazingAmpharos/OoT-Randomizer

I just realized I worded that poorly. I meant that games like Zelda and Metroid do support it, other games don't because there isn't much to randomize (such as platformers, given these tools generally can't create random levels, just swap item locations).

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#100

Post by jhinra »

kchoudhu wrote: post #89
kibwen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video is legendary. It's like sitting in on a university course on the technical details of the physics and programming in Mario 64.

I tend to skip around videos. When it went from "exploit this glitch" to a graph of "registering p-q alignment", I knew I would have to slow down and watch the entire thing. Boy am I glad I did.

Ditto! pannenkoek2012 is operating at a level that every hacker should aspire to. Piecing together that solution for that star in 0.5 A presses is a thing of beauty.
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