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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#181

Post by kingofhdds »

rbanffy wrote: post #161
kingofhdds wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really read the text to the end? "Verbal assault" doesn't have a universal meaning, politeness is VERY culture-dependent, and in modern IT everybody is forced to accept US corporate standard which I'm not even sure is universal for the majority of Americans, and often perceived as grossly insincere, and restrictive to the point it's practically abusive by people raised in other cultures.

In what culture calling someone a fucking inbred imbecile would be considered polite?

It's easier than you think. Probably in all cultures there's an implicit quotient of seriousness applied to angry words (from 1 - "Literal meaning" to 0 - "Absolutely doesn't mean it"), depending on context. In many cultures it quickly decreases as social distance between participants of communication gets shorter. E.g. I wouldn't call a random guy "fucking moron", but I can do it within my circle of friends, and nobody would be offended. In many cultures working within a team means entering much closer relations then Corporate Standard (tm) presumes, and here's more: professional communities considered to be a sort of brother/sisterhoods with reduced social distance within. Do you see the point now?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#182

Post by rbanffy »

kjeetgill wrote: post #177
rbanffy wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what culture calling someone a fucking inbred imbecile would be considered polite?

Maybe not polite, but plenty would read it for what was meant? I'm not saying it's not unprofessional (and "the community" is probably better off without it) but perfectly healthy environments can include that kinda talk. Plenty of friend groups cuss each other out in good fun.

Fine. I didn't specify context.

As you and @kingofhdds pointed out, it's OK to call someone that if you are a close friend or somehow trusted not to literally mean it, but we are talking about a mailing list that's a professional exchange for one of the most important software projects in history, that's read by thousands of people and its messages will be archived probably forever.

We can do better than that.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#183

Post by kingofhdds »

rbanffy wrote: post #182
kjeetgill wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not polite, but plenty would read it for what was meant? I'm not saying it's not unprofessional (and "the community" is probably better off without it) but perfectly healthy environments can include that kinda talk. Plenty of friend groups cuss each other out in good fun.

Fine. I didn't specify context. As you and @kingofhdds pointed out, it's OK to call someone that if you are a close friend or somehow trusted not to literally mean it, but we are talking about a mailing list that's a professional exchange for one of the most important software projects in history, that's read by thousands of people and its messages will be archived probably forever. We can do better than that.

It's still an absolutely monocultural view. Indeed, in anglophone cultures "professional" = more formal, and restrained. In many other places it works like that: professional community means reduced social distance means LESS strict mode of communication, then you would use with people at a bus stop. Personally, I think in some cases it really makes sense to accept a compromise set of rules when communicating internationally, but they must be flexible, dynamic, as much informal as possible, not punishing, and not hindering efficiency. And swearing Linus could be quite within such a compromise. Btw, no formal CoC I ever read represent a compromise, and all efforts to enforce industry-wide CoC is obviously goes against the very idea of compromise.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#184

Post by teddyh »

rbanffy wrote: post #131
rini17 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-abuse system allows abusers to live in its cracks. The article explains that at length, with examples of offensive (though superficially compliant) language used by US managers.

If the CoC has cracks large enough to sustain an abuser ecosystem, those cracks will be identified and paved over.

That approach is called “Enumerating Badness”, and is known to never completely work.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#185

Post by [deleted] »

Certhas wrote: post #179
zeroname wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I replied to annoying, and I replied in a tone that was stronger than it needed to be. It's a good thing that was called out. Next time I'll take a breather before replying and we'll have a more constructive exchange. See, that's what I disagree with. To me that reads li…

Does it look like I'm shying away from conflict here?

[deleted]

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#186

Post by zeroname »

Certhas wrote: post #179
zeroname wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I replied to annoying, and I replied in a tone that was stronger than it needed to be. It's a good thing that was called out. Next time I'll take a breather before replying and we'll have a more constructive exchange. See, that's what I disagree with. To me that reads li…

Does it look like I'm shying away from conflict here?

Yes.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#187

Post by Certhas »

zeroname wrote: post #186
Certhas wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it look like I'm shying away from conflict here?

Yes.

It's attitudes like yours, that seem to equate conflict with aggression, not admitting mistakes with strength and bullying with commanding respect, that need to be opposed. CoCs or not.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#188

Post by zeroname »

Certhas wrote: post #187
zeroname wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes.

It's attitudes like yours, that seem to equate conflict with aggression, not admitting mistakes with strength and bullying with commanding respect, that need to be opposed. CoCs or not.

> It's attitudes like yours, that seem to equate conflict with aggression

I don't. Aggressiveness, especially passive-aggressiveness (like in your original reply) is usually a sign of weakness.

> not admitting mistakes with strength

You ceded to an overly pedantic and uncharitable interpretation of the CoC that, if applied, would be disastrous. People can't live up to that standard, applying it would be counter-productive even to your own goals. My goal was to make you realize that, not cave in. You had not made a mistake.

> and bullying with commanding respect

Asking people to live up to an extreme interpretation of an already highly subjective CoC, that is bullying in my book. If you actually commanded respect, you wouldn't need such a document in the first place.

> ...that need to be opposed.

You're opposing a straw man.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#189

Post by rbanffy »

teddyh wrote: post #184
rbanffy wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the CoC has cracks large enough to sustain an abuser ecosystem, those cracks will be identified and paved over.

That approach is called “Enumerating Badness”, and is known to never completely work.

It doesn't need to be perfect, as long as there are no false positives and few valse negatives.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#190

Post by BrandoElFollito »

ryandrake wrote: post #163
notacoward wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how t…

Yea, if you've been in the SV bubble for too long you might not even perceive it! One of the biggest cultural things I struggled to get used to when I moved out to the Bay Area for work (originally from the northeast too), was the extent to which I needed to constantly self-censor and water down my wording to the point of meaninglessness, simply to avoid offending someone or coming across as too harsh. People out her…

These role would be sent for file training to the Netherlands. This is one of the most direct culture, you get a raw opinion.

This is a good thing, eventually, after an adaptation period where you think that missed the memo on being nice.

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