Linux – The beginning of the end? • Hacker News Board

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#81

Post by rini17 » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:39 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #78

CryptoRetired wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The CoC normalizes abuse. 2. If someone is abusive without a CoC thryvcan ve easily removed. 3. They aren’t abusing the code of conduct when they use it to attack people, that’s what itcwas designed for. It was designed by a person with an axe to grind who makes no secret of their agenda.

> The CoC normalizes abuse. Please explain how an anti-abuse system normalises abuse? > If someone is abusive without a CoC thryvcan ve easily removed. It has long been argued that Linus was abusive, and he wasn't removed at all let alone "easily".

Anti-abuse system allows abusers to live in its cracks. The article explains that at length, with examples of offensive (though superficially compliant) language used by US managers.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#82

Post by CryptoRetired » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:39 AM UTC

amaccuish wrote: post #74

CryptoRetired wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. There’s a half dozen there I used to contribute to... and one I didn’t realize had adopted it. If I ever need to add a feature to one of them I’ll have to fork it. But I think that it needs a “no CoC” license. That list, by the way, is a list of projects run by people who bowed to pressure and didn’t really think it thru or believed the lies pushed by those pushing the CoC. I know this first hand for the project…

> That list, by the way, is a list of projects run by people who bowed to pressure and didn’t really think it thru or believed the lies pushed by those pushing the CoC. Are you implying that those who support a CoC are lying or somehow not "strong" enough to oppose it? You've stated elsewhere [0] your objection that people who oppose a CoC are implied to be bigoted. And yet here you are assuming that those who have n…

I don’t see the contradiction. Just look at any of the commit threads onva prohect where opposition to the CoC is discussed. They fly in “developers” who claim they don’t feel included and bully the maintainer to accept it, often straight up violating their own code in the process.

But then as the original agreement says there is no racism against whites people and no sexism against men.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#83

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:40 AM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

[deleted]

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#84

Post by kaneua » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:42 AM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #10

lanevorockz wrote: post #2

I am a Linux developer and contributor for a few decades and the code of conduct simply killed any interest in contributing to it. It won't take long until backdoors are introduced on Linux. Activists that joined the community for money will have full control and the ability of banning any criticism. We really need Linus back.

Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. I really wonder where the great fear that CoCs will be abused to shut down disagreement comes from. I am not a fan of policing language, but there just aren't many real examples of such abuse out there. Here is the actual list of examples from the…

The problem is not in the guys who want to misbehave and hate Code of Conduct because of that. Code of conduct and its vaguely written rules gives certain people a power to abuse. As we know from history, if there is a possibility that power can be abused, it will be.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#85

Post by type0 » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:42 AM UTC

The phrases like "you need to go and learn some empathy through sensitivity training" are deeply offensive to autistic spectrum individuals, this is where the whole "inclusion" thing falls down on its double standards. Also the whole obsession with skin color and gender as if that would automatically mean that those individuals are more diverse is simply not true, you can't be diverse if you only allow homogeneity of thoughts and ideas (which is the most important part).

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#86

Post by xolorg » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:44 AM UTC

CoC encourages harrassment through doxing and witch-hunts. It actually has the opposite effect.

You were rude to me on a bug tracker? I'll dox you and find something you said 5 years ago which is offensive and report it to the committee to get you banned.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#87

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:45 AM UTC

nalllar wrote: post #73

/r/linux has been full of arguments about this recently. The moderation team claims that many of the people arguing against the CoC appear to be new to /r/linux. > We have noticed a large influx of accounts this past week that have never commented or posted in /r/Linux before. We have also seen a large number of accounts being created just to comment on these posts. ~ /u/Kruug From https://aa.reddit.com/r/linux/comme…

Yes, the problem is there's a significant ""pro-abuse"" movement around who are willing to turn up anywhere these issues are discussed despite not having any previous involvement with the community and argue that they need to be continued to drive away marginalised people and anyone who doesn't have an extremely thick skin.

(Not directed at anyone specific, but I notice some green text in this thread too)

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#88

Post by Tbrowaway1q72 » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:50 AM UTC

poilcn wrote: post #61

Tbrowaway1q72 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to say but proven until guilty and basic rights does not apply to everything in life (tax law, private endeavors, I can refuse service to someone, I can kick you out from my home without listening to you if I think you did something wrong). If someone is accusing you and they don't want to hear you, stop contributing. It is is not criminal justice. You are not obligated to spend your time fighting with assholes…

What if we talk about someone who's already spent hundred of hours on a certain project and this happens? It's not like you can ignore it. Or what if we talk about the creator of the project.

Get over with it. So woman should stay with a man that is beating her because they are together for 10 years and have 2 kids? If environment is toxic leave, look for help.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#89

Post by ofrzeta » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:51 AM UTC

ofrzeta wrote: post #29

I don't know about the end of Linux .. but I'd love to see Linus fork Linux just to see who follows and how this turns out. He could certainly afford to do it (economically and otherwise).

No need for a downvote :) I have witnessed Linux' rise from nothing to the dominating server OS. Back then there was a rich ecosystem of other Unix systems that we used at my workplace (HP/UX, Digital Unix, Irix) and when we started introducing Linux it was belittled for years as a toy until it was finally accepted and slowly the other systems disappeared.

Now if Linux came to an end (I don't think so) or Linus started some new OS project it wouldn't be the end of the world but the opportunity to start over and create something new. Eternal recurrence and all that ..

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#90

Post by vesak » Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 10:54 AM UTC

CryptoRetired wrote: post #70

pjc50 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the official Drupal statement it comes across very differently: https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/drupal-association-a... There was a dispute which was being handled privately, and in consultation with Larry, but he decided to attack the project in public over it.

The spin and misrepresentation in that article is a perfect example- take a consensual action of an adult and pretend like they were being coerced, in order to smear a guy who has not committed a crime. This is exactly how it’s done every single time. Vague accusations or outright lies are used to characterize someone and demand they be removed or punished. The reality is they don’t like his sexual choices. It’s lite…

>It’s literally the same as if Christians went after a gay man like me and claimed I should be removed because I’m a criminal committing sodomy (in my own home they assume) which is illegal in many states.

Perhaps I understood this wrong... are you saying that discriminating against somebody because they're gay is exactly the same as discriminating against somebody because they sexually harassed someone?