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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#61

Post by poilcn »

Tbrowaway1q72 wrote: post #48
CryptoRetired wrote: post #15

I am a gay man[0] who has contributed to a number of open source projects significantly. However I stopped when they implemented “Code of Conducts” that deny basic rights such as innocent until proven guilty and the right to face your accuser. (The popular one keeps accusers anonymous, thus the victim has no chance to defend themselves.) The truth is a maintainer can eject someone without a CoC. The purpose of CoC, a…

Sorry to say but proven until guilty and basic rights does not apply to everything in life (tax law, private endeavors, I can refuse service to someone, I can kick you out from my home without listening to you if I think you did something wrong). If someone is accusing you and they don't want to hear you, stop contributing. It is is not criminal justice. You are not obligated to spend your time fighting with assholes…

What if we talk about someone who's already spent hundred of hours on a certain project and this happens? It's not like you can ignore it. Or what if we talk about the creator of the project.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#62

Post by CryptoRetired »

chimprich wrote: post #53
CryptoRetired wrote: post #15

I am a gay man[0] who has contributed to a number of open source projects significantly. However I stopped when they implemented “Code of Conducts” that deny basic rights such as innocent until proven guilty and the right to face your accuser. (The popular one keeps accusers anonymous, thus the victim has no chance to defend themselves.) The truth is a maintainer can eject someone without a CoC. The purpose of CoC, a…

> I get to see abuse from [...] SJWs who hate me for being male and apparently think preferring men is discrimination against women! Please forgive me the scepticism, but this sounds like a standard far-right caricature of liberal beliefs rather than anything that actually happened. People don't actually think like this. If I have to assume good faith here, then another possibility is that you were being trolled. (Ed…

[flagged]

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#63

Post by pjc50 »

arkh wrote: post #31
rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

The problem is multiple vague parts which taken together can be a bad thing. >Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: >Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting Following which country professional setting? The US? >Maintainers have the right and responsibility to [...] ban temporarily or permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they deem…

It's interesting to see the competing claims:

- the kernel community is comprised entirely of people who will never be abusive, so it doesn't need a code of conduct

- the project is surrounded by people who are so dangerous that they will abuse any kind of process, even a code of conduct

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#64

Post by CryptoRetired »

pjc50 wrote: post #63
arkh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is multiple vague parts which taken together can be a bad thing. >Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: >Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting Following which country professional setting? The US? >Maintainers have the right and responsibility to [...] ban temporarily or permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they deem…

It's interesting to see the competing claims: - the kernel community is comprised entirely of people who will never be abusive, so it doesn't need a code of conduct - the project is surrounded by people who are so dangerous that they will abuse any kind of process, even a code of conduct

1. The CoC normalizes abuse. 2. If someone is abusive without a CoC thryvcan ve easily removed. 3. They aren’t abusing the code of conduct when they use it to attack people, that’s what itcwas designed for. It was designed by a person with an axe to grind who makes no secret of their agenda.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#65

Post by alkonaut »

xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #57
alkonaut wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. This is always a difficult line to draw. If you find out someone is a nazi (and thus would like to see you dead or preferably never born) it's hard to just look past that fact and colllaborate constructively just because the behavior was "unrelated to the project". The simple rule would be- would you be fired on the spot…

>This is always a difficult line to draw. It's not difficult at all. What contributors are doing privately has nothing to do with the project.

As I was trying to explain - behavior in the project is certainly more important, but outside behavior can’t be entirely ignored. Just like in a workplace.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#66

Post by CryptoRetired »

ATsch wrote: post #35

I find the doom-and-gloom over the CoC change absolutely silly. Plenty of projects have a CoC and none of them have just died a fiery death because there were rules against treating people badly. As other people pointed out, there's a big difference between putting everything into 15 layers of business speak and just not insulting people. Linus is, to me, obviously advocating the latter.

BSD is dying.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#67

Post by _pmf_ »

Tbrowaway1q72 wrote: post #48
CryptoRetired wrote: post #15

I am a gay man[0] who has contributed to a number of open source projects significantly. However I stopped when they implemented “Code of Conducts” that deny basic rights such as innocent until proven guilty and the right to face your accuser. (The popular one keeps accusers anonymous, thus the victim has no chance to defend themselves.) The truth is a maintainer can eject someone without a CoC. The purpose of CoC, a…

Sorry to say but proven until guilty and basic rights does not apply to everything in life (tax law, private endeavors, I can refuse service to someone, I can kick you out from my home without listening to you if I think you did something wrong). If someone is accusing you and they don't want to hear you, stop contributing. It is is not criminal justice. You are not obligated to spend your time fighting with assholes…

> If someone is accusing you and they don't want to hear you, stop contributing.

You're assuming he's contributing privately and can stop at leisure.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#68

Post by _pmf_ »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #66
ATsch wrote: post #35

I find the doom-and-gloom over the CoC change absolutely silly. Plenty of projects have a CoC and none of them have just died a fiery death because there were rules against treating people badly. As other people pointed out, there's a big difference between putting everything into 15 layers of business speak and just not insulting people. Linus is, to me, obviously advocating the latter.

BSD is dying.

Does Netcraft confirm it?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#69

Post by CryptoRetired »

vesak wrote: post #7
throwaway_9832 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the same for me when Go introduced the CoC. I remember a witch-hunt conducted by someone on one of the important developers because of his language on some other forum. It just reeked of BS and pseudo superiority. I consider myself tolerant and liberal yet I find it bad. I wish people realise that CoC is not a passive constitution. It becomes an active weapon.. and most victims are the ones who actually contri…

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think this is going to kill Linux. As for Linus's vacation/break/whatever, it's good that they're practicing giving the reins away. It is bound to happen at some future anyway. It's equally good that they're practicing behaving well, because it's quite possible that t…

No, it’s not inclusive at all. It is very leftist, however. Thryvtalk avkit diversity, but they can’t abide people actually being different (speaking about Rust specifically here.) If day of all the language projects it’s the least inclusive.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#70

Post by CryptoRetired »

pjc50 wrote: post #23
aikah wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is one of the most inclusive projects there is There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness", whatever it means, however there are multiple examples where codes of conducts were used to exclude contributors because they said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm... CoC are political tools to…

If you read the official Drupal statement it comes across very differently: https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/drupal-association-a... There was a dispute which was being handled privately, and in consultation with Larry, but he decided to attack the project in public over it.

The spin and misrepresentation in that article is a perfect example- take a consensual action of an adult and pretend like they were being coerced, in order to smear a guy who has not committed a crime.

This is exactly how it’s done every single time.

Vague accusations or outright lies are used to characterize someone and demand they be removed or punished.

The reality is they don’t like his sexual choices.

It’s literally the same as if Christians went after a gay man like me and claimed I should be removed because I’m a criminal committing sodomy (in my own home they assume) which is illegal in many states.

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