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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#161

Post by rbanffy »

kingofhdds wrote: post #37
rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

Did you really read the text to the end? "Verbal assault" doesn't have a universal meaning, politeness is VERY culture-dependent, and in modern IT everybody is forced to accept US corporate standard which I'm not even sure is universal for the majority of Americans, and often perceived as grossly insincere, and restrictive to the point it's practically abusive by people raised in other cultures.

In what culture calling someone a fucking inbred imbecile would be considered polite?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#163

Post by ryandrake »

notacoward wrote: post #108
quantummkv wrote: post #76

> You cannot expect people from Finland, Spain, Turkey, Namibia, or Japan to behave the same way, talk the same way, express themselves the same way. You cannot expect them to just normalize to a cookie-cutter template and move on. That does not work. And yet, that's the expectation, because that's how the US-centric IT world is designed. This. Right here. The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to hav…

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how t…

Yea, if you've been in the SV bubble for too long you might not even perceive it!

One of the biggest cultural things I struggled to get used to when I moved out to the Bay Area for work (originally from the northeast too), was the extent to which I needed to constantly self-censor and water down my wording to the point of meaninglessness, simply to avoid offending someone or coming across as too harsh. People out here have such thin skin, and you're always walking on eggshells when you need to disagree with something. It's a kind of newspeak, where it colors every interaction with people and makes it impossible to deliver certain messages effectively, without sugar-coating or couching with "probablys" and "maybes". When you take this culture and these rules and assume the entire world plays by them, you're likely to end up looking totally out of touch.

EDIT: Self-censored a little. :-)

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#164

Post by ryandrake »

benwad wrote: post #94
CryptoRetired wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see the contradiction. Just look at any of the commit threads onva prohect where opposition to the CoC is discussed. They fly in “developers” who claim they don’t feel included and bully the maintainer to accept it, often straight up violating their own code in the process. But then as the original agreement says there is no racism against whites people and no sexism against men.

> But then as the original agreement says there is no racism against whites people and no sexism against men. Where does it say that? Here is the full text of the CoC: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-con...

Having read it, I thought there would be more to it. I don’t see enough to either agree or disagree with. That document is so vague and open to interpretation. Essentially only one part seems to be the meat:

> Project maintainers are responsible for clarifying the standards of acceptable behavior and are expected to take appropriate and fair corrective action in response to any instances of unacceptable behavior.

That’s it. If it’s acceptable to the maintainers, it’s acceptable. If it’s unacceptable to the maintainers, it’s not.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#165

Post by dang »

notacoward wrote: post #108
quantummkv wrote: post #76

> You cannot expect people from Finland, Spain, Turkey, Namibia, or Japan to behave the same way, talk the same way, express themselves the same way. You cannot expect them to just normalize to a cookie-cutter template and move on. That does not work. And yet, that's the expectation, because that's how the US-centric IT world is designed. This. Right here. The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to hav…

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how t…

> extremely SV-centric Hacker News

HN users are about 10% from SV (5-14%, depending on what exactly you count). And about 50% from the US.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#166

Post by yongjik »

Sigh. For 27 years, Linux has been maintained by a frankly abrasive person who weren't afraid to show middle finger to a big company, say some coders should be "retroactively aborted", and even say "shut the fuck up" to a co-contributor. We were told that it was part of Finnish culture of being direct, and although some people grumbled (and some thought that was a load of BS), people didn't really mind that much, worked together, and built the Linux we know now.

Now, for once, Linus Torvalds thinks it's time for change and maybe everyone could be a little nicer to everyone else, and suddenly we hear doom and gloom and how yielding to the American "SJW" culture will ruin Linux for everyone.

I wonder what choice words Linus-of-yesteryear would have uttered to see the shenanigan.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#167

Post by CryptoRetired »

Of course since this thread had actual debate that wasn't fully compliant with the SJW agenda, it has been flagged, my account has been flagged, and the resident homophobic bigots of HN have harassed and abused me and flagged and silenced me.

You call for diversity and rational discussion but you won't participate in it, and you don't pracitice it.

Once again the absolute hypocrisy and fascism of the SJW left is exposed.

Fucking hypocrites.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#168

Post by CryptoRetired »

dang wrote: post #165
notacoward wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how t…

> extremely SV-centric Hacker News HN users are about 10% from SV (5-14%, depending on what exactly you count). And about 50% from the US. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521

But the cargo cult monoculture you nazis enforce with your abuse and repeated threats of violence are very SJW SV leftist.

Translation: Anything that disagrees with dangs homophobic, neonazi politics is not tolerated on HN. Unless you agree with him, your opinions are ideological rants. If you do agree with him, of course, abuse, name calling, stalking, harassments, threats of violence, violations of the law and hate speech are ok... as dang himself engages in and provides cover for regularly on this site.

Anyone who dares point out this hypocrisy or dares to think for themselves, for that matter, will be censored immediately.

Because like all nazis, dang is an intellectual coward who cannot defend his positions, will not recognize his own hypocrisy and abuse, and thinks that silencing people so that the "HN record" only shows one side makes reality.

Reality is you're an abusive, lying asshole, and hypocrite.

You don't care for diversity, you seek to create a monoculture of group think.

And anyone worth a damn has left his site or been driven off.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#169

Post by notacoward »

dang wrote: post #165
notacoward wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how t…

> extremely SV-centric Hacker News HN users are about 10% from SV (5-14%, depending on what exactly you count). And about 50% from the US. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521

I think the SV influence is probably much stronger than those numbers show. For one thing, what are the numbers like when adjusted for posting frequency? Five users who each post once a month don't balance out even one of the people who post a dozen comments a day. Also, people who have very strong connections with SV companies as employers, investors, or even customers are likely to adopt some of those attitudes even if they live elsewhere (like me). I'm pretty sure a real sentiment analysis would show a different result than a mere user survey.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#170

Post by dang »

notacoward wrote: post #169
dang wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> extremely SV-centric Hacker News HN users are about 10% from SV (5-14%, depending on what exactly you count). And about 50% from the US. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521

I think the SV influence is probably much stronger than those numbers show. For one thing, what are the numbers like when adjusted for posting frequency? Five users who each post once a month don't balance out even one of the people who post a dozen comments a day. Also, people who have very strong connections with SV companies as employers, investors, or even customers are likely to adopt some of those attitudes eve…

The numbers vary depending on what we measure but they just don't vary that much. For example, when you look at total submissions and comments, the SV portion goes up to 10.9%. The highest SV number I've seen is actually for total page views (14.4%), which may suggest that SV users are reading more than posting, relative to other demographics.

When I read your comment I can't help but hear it as taking a step away from the numbers and back into preconceptions (i.e. real numbers would show what you already know). One thing I've noticed from years of doing this is that people's preconceptions about HN are amazingly strong and often not open to change. Sorry—I know that sounds condescending; in case it helps, I don't think I'm any different.

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