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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#901

Post by patrickmay »

sverhagen wrote: post #833
marmot777 wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most great people have a flaw that hinders them or even brings them down. That same flaw is also part of the trait that drove them to greatness. Linus's flaw fits that model and he's self aware enough to grok it and try to mitigate the problem. That said, if you removed 100% of the asshole from Linus you'd have removed the drive that made him a hero. I hope he finds the balance. Regardless, he'll always be one of my…

Is that a fact from psychology or statistics or something, because it sounds to me like making excuses for his bad behavior? I don't see how being an asshole should have much correlation with success.

It seems that not suffering fools gladly could well be correlated with success. It reduces time wasted (although doing so extremely impolitely may have other negative results).

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#902

Post by LaGrange »

hnzix wrote: post #621
wpietri wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're looking for a science-ish expression of postmodern insight, consider the line from statistician George Box: "All models are wrong, some models are useful." This isn't particularly shocking to anybody familiar with the history of science. Newton's model was wrong but useful, for example. All software is wrong but useful models of the world. (Well, some of it is wrong and useless, but you know what I mean.) P…

My impression was more "All models are wrong, therefore all models are valid". Some models are less wrong! It seems to me that the postmodernism movement correctly called attention to social models being somewhat arbitrary and power-based but then (motivated by ideological agendas?) ran with the ball to say this means all cultures are equally worthy (where worthy means "should be promoted"). To use an exaggerated exa…

> My impression was more "All models are wrong, therefore all models are valid".

That's a misrepresentation. It's actually fairly interesting where that misrepresentation originated from (hint: it was propaganda from totalitarian movements).

It's a reaction to modernist assumption that "absolute truth" is possible for any question, and in particular, how often that truth _just happened_ to be personal taste of some dude (brutalism (I personally like brutalism) and modernist architecture in general are probably the most obvious examples).

For sure, there have been explorations into pretty much every field, with varying success. In science, though, that relativity is more oriented towards establishing what theories get investigated, than the actual result (for example, how many investigations of liberalism in political science completely ignored the racial aspect of it, and its rather dismal history in that respect, or various - thankfully largely defunct by now - excustions into phrenology, eugenics, and similar woo).

So, modernism isn't "all models are valid." It's "you can't just declare that your model is the bestest because you like it/it's 'simple'/it's 'elegant'/it happens to declare Helvetica to be the objectively best font."

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#903

Post by Latty »

madmulita wrote: post #853
marmot777 wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. You can tear the work apart if needed but don't get personal. Ever.

You mean, the work and the person are completely unrelated?

No, but what is your aim?

If your aim is to make yourself feel better by putting someone down, then sure, I guess the person is responsible for the code, go nuts.

The aim of any adult should be to get a contribution without the flaws. If that's your aim, then telling someone they are stupid or whatever, at best, does nothing. At worst, they never contribute again.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#905

Post by DoreenMichele »

wolfgke wrote: post #846
pron wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but it's a start and a symbolic gesture.

> Of course, but it's a start and a symbolic gesture. In Germany, they say: "'Gut' ist das Gegenteil von 'gut gemeint'" ("'Good' is the opposite of 'well-intentioned'"; I am aware that the pun does not translate well into English).

In English:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#906

Post by JoshTriplett »

quantummkv wrote: post #852
JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

It's a good practice to have some concrete guidelines regarding work environment. But this particular code of conduct is pure and utter garbage. I'm really not sure how Linus could ever willingly accept this. > Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting This statement here from the CoC is pretty much an open invitation to send whoever you don't agree with to the gulag/c…

There's a large overlap between hurtful people and rules lawyers. Writing down samples of bad behavior is helpful; treating it as an exhaustive list is an open invitation to come up with creative new ways to hurt people that aren't on the list.

Keep in mind that this is all based on the enforcement done by the project maintainers. If you're inclined to do things the project maintainers will consider unacceptable behavior, you're already going to have a problem. This just documents that.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#907

Post by komali2 »

Sacho wrote: post #804
komali2 wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My solution to dealing with people of the "rock polisher" mindset is that I politely refuse to participate in any sort of society with them, professional or private. Would this be a valid method for dealing with these sorts of people?

Okay, but what if you are the most pleasant and caring cab company in the world, and suddenly a giant, well-funded bully comes into the scene and starts competing with you? Do you just fold and go into a different business("refuse to participate in any sort of society with them"?) How do you plan to educate everyone to be cooperative when you need to disengage whenever you meet bullies? You will need a closed-off soc…

I don't understand your example - does Lyft ever engage with Uber? Perhaps I wasn't clear - existing next to each other is ok in my theory.

My theory also doesn't require society adoption. It's simply how I deal with it. Yea, if everyone did it, bullies would be ostracized. Actually,if everyone did it, there wouldn't be bullies, so if the majority did it then yes, bullies would be ostracized. This is ok with me.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#908

Post by wsy »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #829
cs02rm0 wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked with brilliant assholes? It sucks the life out of you - and it really sucks when they get idolized and rewarded heavily. I've worked with a few people I'd consider brilliant. But none whose accomplishments really compare to those of Linus. He's more or less a sample size of one as far as I can see in terms of building out such successful software on such a large community and without being inside…

> He's more or less a sample size of one as far as I can see in terms of building out such successful software on such a large community and without being inside a megacorp. Much of this can be explained because he was at the right place at the right time. Two very important reasons why Linux is so successful are GNU and the GPLv2. Any decent kernel could have taken off at that time. Linux was the first that actually…

You always build on the shoulders of giants. However, it was Linux that took off, not alternatives (e.g., Minix).

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#909

Post by wsy »

jdmichal wrote: post #859
olavk wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are equating politeness with not halting bad ideas. That is not politeness, that is incompetence. Competent people would halt bad ides, but it can be done in different ways: - Abrasive: This idea is the dumbest ever and you are an idiot that deserves to die. - Constructive: This idea have problems X, Y and Z. - Polite: Thank you for the effort, but I see problems X, Y and Z with the idea in its current form. A…

Your "polite" has moved way too far into manipulative / passive-aggressive with weasel words like "I see" and "in its current form". If you are in a position of power like Linus, where your perception is the project's reality, couching such realities as if your perception is the only problem will lead to fights and a lot more resentment. Just saying, "Thanks, but I won't accept this until X, Y, and Z are corrected,"…

I think it depends a lot on the context. Some examples:

- Someone injects an obviously inferior idea for political reasons (e.g. the recent TLS 1.3 debate). Then, a rude response might be your best option to deter the opponent. I think, some of Linus's attacks from the past fall in this category.

- Someone is just inexperienced and proposes a bad idea with good intentions. Then go for factual "This is flawed, here is why".

- Someone proposes an idea with flaws, but you see potential beyond the current proposal. Then, one should politely point out the current weaknesses, and at the same time encourage the proposer to improve on it.

As successful leader, you need a repertoire of responses.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#910

Post by kupiakos »

dx87 wrote: post #867
jernfrost wrote: post #794

I think one has to be fair about what sort of asshole Linus is. He is not like Steve Jobs, Balmer and Gates who could be vindictive and get personal. For Linus it is more about being far too blunt. But you can clearly see Linus himself being aware of it and having some humbleness about it. Jobs in contrast would never admit his bad behavior. As a fellow Nordic (Norwegian) I feel a significant component of this is sim…

I agree, he seemed to only get personal when he knew the developer, and it seemed like it was mainly because he knew that they knew better, but were still submitting bad patches anyway. I still remember seeing an email response to someone who was just starting college and was telling Linus that he thought the way they were using spinlocks in the kernel was wrong. Linus knew they didn't know any better, so he didn't i…

That sounds like an interesting email. Would you be willing to link to it?
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